Mental Illness and Faith - How Can Clergy and Congregations Help? (Episode 44)

When Mental Illness happens, it happens to the whole family.

 Do families turn to their houses of faith for help ? And if they do, what happens?

We explore this in Episode 44-    with 3 moms, one Rabbi and one Pastor. It doesn’t cover all faiths, of course, but it’s a start.

Guests: Rabbi Evan Schultz, Congregation B’Nai Israel, Connecticut

Rev. Mariah Furness Tollgaard, Pastor

Questions:

• Are you aware, as a faith leader, about mental health issues (especially SMI) in your congregants?
• What does your faith say about SMI?
• How do you, as a faith leader, respond to families dealing with mental illness?
• Is learning about Mental Illness part of your training?
• What part does stigma play in talking openly about SMI? - is it taboo to talk about it?
• How can we as activists/advocates help faith leaders serve their constituents?

According to Research (lifeway.inc):

• Only a quarter of churches (27 percent) have a plan to assist families affected by mental illness according to pastors. And only 21 percent of family members are aware of a plan in their church.
• Few churches (14 percent) have a counselor skilled in mental illness on staff, or train leaders how to recognize mental illness (13 percent) according to pastors.
• Two-thirds of pastors (68 percent) say their church maintains a list of local mental health resources for church members. But few families (28 percent) are aware those resources exist.
• Family members (65 percent) and those with mental illness (59 percent) want their church to talk openly about mental illness, so the topic will not be a taboo. But 66 percent of pastors speak to their church once a year or less on the subject.

Links:

NAMI FaithNet

Guide for Faith Leaders from psychiatry.org

Yom Kippur Sermon re mental illness

Want us to cover a topic? comment to share?

Facebook page @Schizophrenia3Moms

@SZ3MomsTrenches -  twitter

Randye Kaye -Broadcaster, Actress, Voice Talent, Speaker, and Author (“Ben Behind his Voices”, “Happier Made Simple”)

Miriam Feldman – Artist, Mom, Author “He Came in With It”

Mindy Greiling – member of the Minnesota House of Representatives for twenty years. Activist, Legislator, Author (“Fix What You Can“)

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:01

Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia. Three moms in the trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feltman, Mindy Gryling, and Randy Kaye. You know, when mental illness happens, it happens to the whole family. If it happened to your family, did you go to your house of worship for help? And if so, what happened? Tonight we'll be talking to a pastor and a rabbi. It doesn't cover all religions, but it's a start. And we'll ask and we'll answer questions. So welcome to Schizophrenia, Three Moms in the Trenches. And since we're all here, I want to start by introducing our two guests. We have Reverend Mariah Furnace Tolgard, who's a pastor. Um Pastor Mariah, what is your congregation's name?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

I am the pastor of Hamlin Church United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota.

SPEAKER_05 0:57

Okay, thank you. And we have my rabbi, Rabbi Evan Schultz, and you can tell us our congregation.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Hi everyone. Yeah, I serve as the senior rabbi of Congregation Benay Israel in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

SPEAKER_05 1:11

Okay, so welcome to both of you. If you're new to the podcast, Mimi and Mindy and I are each moms of happens to be sons with schizophrenia. We are authors of books, memoirs, and more information about the subjects. And we found part of our piece by being mental health advocates and activists and podcast hosts. So tonight, talking about faith traditions and mental illness, how can clergy and congregations help? So welcome both of you. I I just want to start with uh a brief story, and and I think the rest of our stories will come out. So I've been a member of my congregation, where uh Rabbi Evan is our rabbi for a long time since my son is six, my son, whom I call Ben, in my book. And I have to say that when we were going through the initial stages of not knowing what was wrong, you were not the you were not the rabbi, Evan. But um I I don't think our rabbi knew what to tell me. I just got the impression he didn't know what quite what to do with the problem. It was hard to find things, in my estimation, in the Bible to support me. And but he learned from me as well as me learning from him. And he tried and brought it up. And very soon the congregation had a mental health panel that they invited people to. And this Friday, I'm going to be the speaker for Mental Health Awareness Month at my congregation. So I think we're all learning from each other. Um, Mindy and Mimi, can you just say briefly what your experience with a house of worship has been regarding the family issue with mental illness? Or did you not even bother, Mindy?

SPEAKER_04 2:56

So I would just like to welcome Pastor Mariah personally, because she is my pastor, and we've had wonderful ministers at our Methodist Church, but certainly on many scores, but and especially on the topic of mental illness, she is the best we've ever had. Um, I have to say that she did a series on the elephants in the room, and mental illness was one of those. She interviewed me. They had a book event. Um, just recently, um, our associate pastor talked about her own depression, and that included cutting. Mariah has talked about her um thoughts of suicide at a younger age. So we are like ideal and couldn't be better right now. But um, Ray's asking about when Jim was first um first sick and first diagnosed, and we had a wonderful minister then too. He visited Jim in the psych ward. He was very caring. And Mariah already knows the story, but when when I called the Roger, my husband actually called the church about putting Jim on the uh the list that was in the hospital, he some of the minister said that um that he would do that happily, but and he don't worry, he wouldn't tell anyone that uh what the what the topic was, what he was sick with.

SPEAKER_05 4:19

Okay, your sound is cutting out quite a bit, Mindy. Could you say that last thing again because your sound is cutting out?

SPEAKER_04 4:28

You know, my computer crashed, and so I am on Roger's computer, which obviously isn't as good as mine. It doesn't have very good sound. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

So if you just say the last, and we have to we have to move on. So just tell us. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

So the the nut of it was that the minister put the put Jim on the prayer list being in the hospital for the first time with mental illness, a psychotic episode, and said, Don't worry, um, I won't say what it's for. And so that I thought was, you know, buying into the silence of mental illness. And I think he meant it in a very kind way, however.

SPEAKER_05 5:11

Absolutely. Thank you. Mimi, how about you?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Well, my family, we have two religions in my family, and uh it's kind of ambiguous in terms of what everybody is, so we don't um we're not associated with the house of worship. Though I do remember when Nick was first sick, he went to the Catholic church in our neighborhood to talk to the priest. Uh Nick's illness has had a lot of uh tinges of you know religion religiosity of his own in there. And um, when you read through his writings, it's all there. And so he's he's reached out and gotten, you know, comfort and help, as one would hope. And that was really lovely.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Okay, thank you. So I'm gonna read uh some statistics and then we can get to the first question. And I will add um for pastor and rabbi that I I know that you have each mentioned a bit about in in your congregation there's you you've dealt with depression and bipolar and anxiety. We each have sons with schizophrenia, so that makes it a horse of a different color, as they say, although it's a similar color. And my experience has been that is the most difficult mental illness to offer comfort for, because it's not a mood disorder. But um I in terms of statistics, this is what interesting. This is from LifeWay Incorporated. Only a quarter of churches have a plan to assist families affected by mental illness, according to pastors. Clearly, not true for either one of you, but I just thought I'd throw that out there for the listeners. And only about 21% of family members are aware of a plan in their church. I do remember going for help 20 some odd years ago and finding pamphlets for everything in the waiting area except mental illness. And I hope that has changed. Um, two-thirds of pastors say their church maintains a list of local mental health resources, but few families are aware of that. So maybe you can tell us how to be aware. So, you know, as a faith leader, and we'll just ask you one at a time are you aware about mental health issues, especially serious mental illness in your congregants? And how do you become aware of that? Rabbi, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Sure. Uh for sure, it's um definitely I've found uh more and more people are sort of approaching us, approaching the clergy to talk about mental illness and their family and their lives. Um, especially I've seen more parents sort of coming uh to us, parents of children, parents of teens uh who are um going through uh struggling with mental illness, uh with SMI. Um so we are aware, um, you know, I think um probably as you've seen, Randy, one of our clergy team, uh, you know, also very publicly kind of spoke about uh her mental illness with the congregation, how to take a little time off. And I think that also uh kind of helped to give other people license or have them uh sort of feel seen in our community. Um, so I'd say it's definitely in my time, I've been uh in this role now three years, uh, more and more uh folks definitely are uh, you know, I think feeling comfortable, and we've kind of also extended the invitation uh for people to come uh and to talk with us about mental health issues in their lives.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Pastor? Yeah, similarly. I mean, I think that I mental health touches so many aspects of ministry these days, whether it is, you know, families coming in, um Rabbi was talking about, just wanting to kind of tell you where they're at and what's happening in their life or with their child. Um, we are across the street from university. So a lot of the young adults that I work with there uh have come to me and are telling me some aspect of what's going on uh in their life and are looking for for support or maybe just um some new uh resources. And also being in a fairly urban context, we have a lot of folks who walk in off the street and have on a couple of occasions found ourselves in the midst of a major mental health crisis. And that's not with their family members. That's that's folks often who are uh unhoused, um, perhaps there's other drug and alcohol issues going on as well, and uh and kind of become a first stop until we can get the you know mental health team there or next level of support.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

So you know, so what do you do if that if in that case somebody walks in?

SPEAKER_03 10:01

You know, it it often depends on the what's going on in the day. Uh, we have a preschool in our church, and so we have to make sure that everybody's safe. Um, we had a situation this summer where uh a woman was wandering in the parking lot half naked. It was 20 below as or in the winter, as it is in January in Minnesota, and um we invited her inside. And um, as we were trying to kind of de-escalate and figure out what was going on, there were fortunately it was a day there was a lot of staff there. So the other uh pastor and I could kind of swap in and out. And uh we called our county mental health support. Um, she refused to talk to them on the phone. It took over two hours for somebody to come uh to help us. And you know, and even from there, uh she wouldn't go with them, and so we had to kind of keep going until eventually the police came and they couldn't take her. Um and so it that it was heartbreaking. I mean, it was the middle of winter and she just kind of had to let let her go.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Wow, you you just had a taste of what families like ours go through quite often. Quite often. What was this any, you know, was this part of your training, your pastoral training? Like I know you both trained in that. Did they bring this up at all, uh, Rabbi?

SPEAKER_01 11:29

A little bit part of our training. You know, it's interesting. Like um I was uh, you know, kind of thinking back on my experiences and preparing for tonight. A lot of our uh a lot of our training more is about sort of like physical illness responding in that way. You know, I do um uh many of us do a chaplaincy work um for a semester uh or a summer at uh local hospital. I was at NYU hospital, and um almost all of that training was around you know responding to people who are going through various physical illness. I walked the cancer floor, I walked people who were preparing uh for surgery, uh, and there was not very much training around uh mental health issues, certainly in that uh in that year of chaplaincy. Um we talk about it a little bit. Um we do have classes around pastoral care and that kind of work, and I think it's uh more and more uh it has been uh it's being talked about, being discussed uh in our rabbinic circles, uh in clergy circles. But yeah, I was ordained uh 10 years ago this past weekend, and uh I will say, yeah, much more of the focus was on you know physical uh rather than mental mental health. And I'm I'm glad I think it's it's it's changing.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

Thank you, Pastor?

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Yeah, you know, in my divinity school, there it wasn't part of our spiritual care and counseling sort of of course, but um similarly again to the rabbi, I did uh some time in uh as a hospital chaplain and didn't talk about it a lot there, but I actually did an additional um summer internship in a mental health hospital in Boston. And so I learned a lot. I don't feel like anyone was instructing me as much as like go on in, um, but there I was really grateful to learn alongside the the health professionals um who live it day in and day out. And I think as I've gone on, I've I've sort of sought out additional education and resources and certainly learned um from folks uh along the way like Mindy and and her family and the stories that they've shared. And um and in fact, I've had times when I've referred people to Mindy or asked, you know, uh, you know, here's somebody in this situation and what can we do? And so um I think we we kind of have to cultivate our own resources.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Yeah, it's I'm kind of inhibited about talking tonight because if my sound isn't very good, but um one time when Jim was in the psych ward, he called for the hospital chaplain to come and talk to him because he thought his thoughts were that he was going to hell. So he wasn't calling for prayers or something like that. He wanted to debate the philosophies of life and did you go to hell and was he going to hell and that sort of thing. Did that ever happen to you, Mariah, when you were a hospital chaplain? Were you ever called to the psychoard to talk to people who were delusional? And often it's religiosity is part of that.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh and and that mix of of wanting to kind of have the debate and also trying to decipher what are what are they actually thinking or where did they get these ideas from and try to say, well, that's you know, really not what I think. You know, and but it's hard. It's like there's not a I, you know, when there's not a, as we would say, come to Jesus moment where we all agree in the end, right? Uh as much as trying to just kind of um be a person to listen and um yeah, great.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

And then another question I have for both of you is have you seen any progress like in the last 10 years in terms of families being open to come to you and share, or is it about the same?

SPEAKER_05 15:38

I guess we'll call on somebody, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Easier to call on us, yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_05 15:44

You can I can see you, you can raise your hand, or just you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah, um, I think so for sure. Um we've also in our uh our synagogue recently uh we started a small groups initiative uh on all kinds of different topics and uh and issues, and we recently started a mental health advocacy and awareness group. Um, and uh I've sort of reached out personally to a lot of people who I know um might wish to be uh be in that group. Um sponsor Randy coming to speak at our uh service and dinner this Friday, which we are so grateful to to Randy. It's been an incredible resource, uh certainly to me and our newer congregation uh over the years. Um I think we also we try to be really uh as clergy intentional about uh our language when we uh talk about sort of heal it healing and and illness. So, you know, for example, uh in our uh in our prayer services, we say a prayer for healing. Uh and you know, traditionally, or sort of when I was growing up, but it was always the rabbi, the clergy would always sort of talk about uh physical healing, uh, you know, people who are sick and uh with uh various um you know physical illness. And we've sort of been very intentional when we we say uh those who are with physical illness, mental, emotional, spiritual, um, and to say the names uh of all of those people. Um and I think even little little changes in language like that, including that sort of those sort of words in our in our prayers, those help people feel seen. They'll you know sometimes we'll say, yeah, thank you just for saying mental mental illness, and that we can say someone's name uh who is uh who has mental health issues. Uh so those sorts of things I think has helped sort of create uh pathways for people to to come and uh and speak with us and seek our care.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Thank you. Yeah, I I would agree. I think um there's been a lot of progress made on language and awareness, and and I feel like often in my preaching there might be or uh almost a disclaimer, you know, if um where we'll make sure that, you know, if I'm uh talking about hope or healing, you know, recognizing sometimes we need additional, you know, medical resources or support or take, you know, for to go to a professional for mental health issues. And um and I think that there are also a lot of uh mainline Protestant denominations in particular that have um like mental health awareness Sunday or month or just lots of of additional tools that are out there and a lot of um prayers and liturgy being written around the topic. And uh so I think it's it is easier for people um to come when when they know that is in the language of our faith tradition now.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

I had I talked to a friend of mine who's a social worker right now in the St. Paul Public Schools, but at one time she was the social worker in the emergency room. And when I told her the topic for this podcast tonight, um she said, and I'm thinking it's the you two are not the culprits, but she said often when she was in the emergency room, the um clergy would come with the family and be strongly advising them against taking any medication that that the doctors might prescribe. And this uh friend of mine also has a son with schizophrenia, so she's very sees the benefit of medication. But have you um uh ever encountered that in your working with other churches, or hasn't that come up about anti-medication? In other words, you should pray about the problem instead of taking medication. And if it's not working, then you should pray harder.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

Oh, that's a loaded question. And after that one, Mimi's got one, but yeah, I but that's not even on our list. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Yeah, I I think that uh certainly there are uh I'm sure many Christian traditions that would would likely espouse that kind of viewpoint or have, you know, think of of healing as something that is of God alone and and wouldn't or would advise against additional support and resources. You know, I think of um just this year I was a part of two end-of-life situations for um adult men with schizophrenia in their 50s, and I was supporting the mom and grandma in one case, and that was a whole different generation of folks. I mean, these women were in their uh 80s, and you know, they as they talked about their their sons' stories, and they they were not completely independent of each other, but um similarly had um faith experiences growing up where it was sort of like can't you fix him or to church to be fixed or healed, and and and some of it was just desperation of trying anything. And what's sometimes people would go to churches that promised healing or casting out of demons. But I think we've come a long way in um in most churches uh recognize the value of of the medical resources and medications available.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

Is there a Jewish point of view, Rabbi? Or I mean not that you're speaking for all Jews, but I mean Yeah, uh no, very much in line uh as uh as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Um yeah, as far as I know, I mean, I think there are perhaps certain uh you know very traditional streams of Judaism that may kind of take that approach, but certainly uh for us. I don't get asked very often my opinion on uh on medication or uh those sorts of questions. Um, but for sure, um you know, we're of the reformed Jewish tradition and uh yeah, fully advocate for any sort of medical, um, you know, medical support, medical advice. Advancements that are out there to uh to help people find healing. Um, I do, I know people uh, you know, I think come more with their struggles about, you know, why this might be happening to them, uh, helping to trying to understand God, you know, where is God's role in this? Or um, yeah, did was there something that that they did that uh, you know, may have uh brought them to this place? Uh so you know, engage with people and conversation sort of more, yeah, more spiritually and trying to um, you know, kind of under kind of for themselves to understand. Um, but uh yeah. What's your answer?

SPEAKER_05 22:37

What's what is, you know, I'm I uh Mimi has a question, but then I want to double back to this, if you will, because I'm curious about how your faith helps you answer questions like that. So let's put that in the parking lot, as they say. Mimi, what did you have to ask?

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Well, you know, I'm thinking about this connection between religiosity and SMI. Because when my son first got sick, one of the things that we noticed, because I had really no familiarity with serious mental illness until that happened, was this theme that runs through so many refrains of people with serious mental illness that God is talking to them or God is telling them what to do, or they're talking to God. And I remember at one point saying to my husband, what if it's true? You know, what if God is talking to them? What if they're on some highly evolved level that us plebeians aren't on? Who's to say? How do we even know? And even though I'm not a big believer, I took some comfort in that. But then as time went on, um I started thinking about the, you know, in ancient times or older times, people who behaved like my son behaves, or people with schizophrenia behave, were often regarded as shamans or seers or you know, holy men. And then when you take a deeper dive and you think about the history of religion, surely so many of these characters or deities or people who were supposedly deities in the history of religion exhibited clearly schizophrenic symptoms. So I wonder um what people of God think about that. I mean, do you think it's possible? Is it something you've ever thought of? Or you know, why is it always that they're talking to God?

SPEAKER_05 24:42

Um okay, Pastor, I'll give I'll let you talk. Sorry, I can nail myself.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, oh no, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

No, just unless you have an idea, Rabbi.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Oh no, I haven't got Pastor. Yeah, it's good to call us whoever you want to speak.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Um, you know, maybe. I I think that I mean, I believe that God is especially with people in who suffer, you know, and that I believe in a God who brings to the center uh those who are are hurting and and in need of, you know, for whatever circumstance that need extra support. And so it, I mean, it could very well be that there is some higher level, you know, connection there, or just maybe in those moments, people uh with suffering from SMI are able to kind of get out of their own way and hear God differently in ways that uh the rest of us can't because we're all so consumed with whatever else is happening in our lives and in the world. Um, I think that there's kind of a litmus test there because if God is or whoever, whatever that spiritual being is speaking to or through you, and uh and there is harm involved, or um something that is unloving, or something that would be harmful to other people or to creation, I don't think that that is of God. Um, but certainly I think you're you're exactly right, Miriam, and lots of mystics and saints and you know, certainly biblical characters, uh, there you probably would wonder what what other uh today what other levels of uh mental health things might be going on in their divine experiences.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

I I often used to say if if we were in some tribe somewhere, my son might be the medicine man, but we're not. We're in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and he can't function in this world with with what goes on in his head. And I'm forever grateful that whatever he hears doesn't take the form of violence. But you know, what families live with, we never know what the voices in their head that they say they don't hear. We never know what they're going to tell them. In in Mindy's book, she talks about Jim taking a very, very, very long walk because his voices were telling him to kill his mom and he didn't want to. So he took a 36-hour walk, Mindy, was it something like that? Well, yeah, I think it was quite a long time.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

I'd have to look up the exact number of hours. But the point is he bumped past me and ran off to do that walk, which I was grateful for when I found out later what the why he did it.

SPEAKER_05 27:30

Yeah, it's it's uh it's an interesting thing. I'm gonna skew the question just slightly differently because I don't think there, you know, I think we've made the point about this is the world that it is, but I'm I'm curious for each of you, and uh Rabbi Evan, I'll start with you. Um when you go to comfort a family or advise a family or I know you listen, but is there anything in the Bible or in the religious or in the faith literature? You know, and Pastor, you're dealing with you know the Old Testament and the sequel, and we're dealing with the Old Testament and the Talmud. So, and that's like opinions about everything basically. But do are there passages in the Bible that help you comfort families or help them make sense of it? Like where is it mentioned, rabbi?

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Um yeah, it's interesting. I was uh I was doing a little text learning kind of in preparation for tonight. There's not a there are not a ton of texts that sort of speak directly in our tradition to mental health issues, or the ones that do are not ones I particularly want to share or feel particularly proud of.

SPEAKER_05 28:44

No, no helpful text. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah, not particularly helpful. Um so you know, but there's there are certain texts that um, you know, I think when you zoom out, uh can be really helpful. I mean, uh, you know, just the uh the text from from Genesis and sort of that each human being was created in the the divine image. Um and sort of I'm always so drawn to that, yeah. For people who are who are kind of struggling or questioning or asking, say, you know, each human, there's this divine spark in each human being. Uh, you know, kind of mirroring to what you were you were speaking about. Um, and that to me, um, oh, we lost uh lost those.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

Yes, she'll come, she'll come back.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Oh, okay. Um uh, you know, those I think to just kind of affirm to them that yeah, your family or you are like uh deeply loved, and you have the uh you know reflection and spark of the divine within you or your uh your child or your parent or your uh brother or your sister um really carries that and then I sort of go, you know, go from there and uh in a lot of ways that just beginning that um is sort of reassuring um to folks to uh you know, and then you could sort of yeah look at some of the texts that are not helpful and sort of say, well, hey, maybe how maybe could this have uh this biblical character Can you give us an example of something you found that you feel wonderful? That's not so helpful. You know, there's sort of a famous one, there's um, you know, kind of a famous one. Um this is uh um in the book of uh in the book of Samuel, um, and Hannah is um it's this is not about mental illness, but this is just how not to talk to people, I guess. But she's sitting, um she's sitting on the the steps of the temple and she's praying. Um like it's this beautiful prayer. We read it actually on our High Holy Days uh in our in our synagogue. Uh she's like praying to God um in a way that like was not seen before in the Bible. Uh and this uh Eli the priest comes up to her uh and accuses her of being intoxicated because of how she's speaking and how she's praying. Um and uh you know, you look at a text and you think, wow, someone is sort of like in this deep space of prayer. She's praying to God sitting on the step, you know, and this is in the book of prophets, uh and that's how someone sort of looks at her and speaks to her and you know, accuses her. Uh so things text like that, and you sort of say, Well, how you know, how is especially as a religious leader, and you see someone who is um you know deep in prayer and in pain, and um, you know, how that's sort of a lesson oftentimes in how not to uh speak to others who are sort of in that in that space and in that place.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

Thank you, Pastor. I know you you had you dropped out there for a minute. So we have storms coming in, I think. So yeah. So the question is is you know, just about in your uh religious texts, is there are there passages that you go for comfort when you're speaking to comfort families who are going through this?

unknown 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

I mean, I think certainly and overarchingly is that we are all created in the image of God, and starting with with Genesis, and everything that God created is good, and that we are all beloved children of God. And so that's that's kind of always the the foundation. Um, I think that, you know, um there there certainly are uh stories in the New Testament about the uh about demons and casting off of demons. I wouldn't recommend that to people, but I think often what what that brings up the conversation is what was the context? What was going on at the time, what's the bigger picture, how do we understand these things differently now? Um and and because I think some of those, those kinds of stories at their sort of face value literal read can be damaging and harmful to people, um, versus if we we kind of understand, you know, um a little bit more of the historical context and what people were were dealing with and grappling in their understanding of health at that time, that it it kind of broadens it and to see that you know God's greatest desire for us is to live abundant life, to live um as fully as we can. And so, what are the the tools and the resources that are disposable to make that possible for anybody to the best ability that they can live that full life?

SPEAKER_05 33:26

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

And I saw the movie The Exorcist long ago. You mentioned casting out demons, Raya. Um, I I just thought it was um a horror movie, but in now I haven't watched it for a long time. But I now I think that young woman probably was coming down with schizophrenia. It's kind of I haven't, I'd have to watch it again to see that. Um Jemis sometimes wishes he was a shaman or somebody revered. He thinks if he was in another culture or another time, then he would be very special. And I'm um on the Nami Ramsey County board, an affiliate of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And we have a woman on there who is Hung, whose sister has a mental illness. And in that culture, her sister is considered chosen, whether she wanted to be or not. She's revered and um taken care of, and everybody thinks she's special, but it concerns her sister, who is a social worker, that part of that care is not medication. So um there's just a lot of nuances with religion and care for people and how we how we treat them.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Thank you. I would like to ask you guys if there are questions you would like to ask us. Now, uh obviously, Pastor, you know Mindy, and Rabbi, you know me. Uh Mimi lives on the West Coast, all up and down the West Coast. And so I is there anything you'd like to know from us about what we wish houses of worship would be able to do? I don't know. Do you have any questions that we can answer for you?

SPEAKER_04 35:10

And Mimi can go first, and she she's not one of the congregants.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

Well, I'm actually asking uh the rabbi and the pastor if they want to ask us. Oh, I meant Mimi can go first when answering. Yep, got it. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. How can we help you understand us?

SPEAKER_03 35:28

I mean, I think I would be curious, um, you know, going back to that sort of initial diagnosis or those early days when someone maybe first goes to their uh to their clergy person, what what kind of response uh would be most valuable to you? I know sometimes I think like, oh, go to the resources, but they probably have you know lots of other resources and deeper resources than I can offer. But also, I mean, how can I as a pastor respond? But also how can I help our faith community respond? And there's a colleague of mine who talks about uh mental health or mental illness as the no casserole illness. You know, people don't show up at your door with with casseroles, and and so I would like to learn how to lead my my congregation in better responding.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

That's great. What I would say to that is it's the same answer that is the answer to so many questions about mental illness and how we can make it better, and that is talk about it. We got to talk about it, um, and not say, Oh, I won't mention that he's sick with mental illness because everybody would be embarrassed, like the pastor before you did. Because the thing is, we've got to make a place for this in our world. We've taken this large segment of our population and said, you don't get to be part of the world, and we've shoved them into the margins. And I think that the houses of worship, if you talked about it and included it and made it just part of life, which it is, because believe me, once you're the parent of somebody with SMI, you realize there is not a family out there that isn't touched by this in some way. It's just nobody's talking about it. So I would say talk about it. And then the other thing that I think would be really helpful is you know, at one point with my son, he was getting, you know, to years and years and years where he was doing better. And once again, no place for him in our culture, no place to be, to hang out, to interact. Nobody wants to have anything to do with him, no one's showing up at the casseroles. And I at that point, and I'm Jewish, I went to the local churches that were near where he lived to just see is there a young adult group? Is there something he can participate in that will make him feel part of something? And there were some things, and then COVID happened. But but I mean, that kind of stuff, that community outreach and connection and inclusiveness, because the one of the worst um results of mental illness is this isolation and this marginalization. And we need to open our arms and find a place for these people. And I think that the houses of worship could do a lot.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

And I will say um I always think mentorship is really important. When Jim was first sick, I wanted to talk to people who had been through this. So I think churches could um maybe have people, you know, connected with others who have gone through this. As Mimi said, in the church, there's probably 20 people or more that are dealing with serious mental illness, but they don't know who the each other is. Or the statement gets in the way. Yeah, right. So um, so I just think having connecting people in the church would be uh my answer.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

I think that that's a great response. You know, I as we were going through, as you guys probably know, uh especially with schizophrenia, for for many of us, uh the early stages are the most confusing because it can take four to five years to even know what it is. My first clue is when my son in Yom Kippur services, this was before your time, Rabbi Ivan, um you know, was hanging out with the wrong girl, I thought, and and they went and had pizza delivered to the temple during our big fasting days. So this was like not a teenage prank. It seemed like a teenage prank at the time, but it was it was very immature at best and a sign of an upcoming mental illness at worst. And so those confusing times. So I think even though you think we have resources, we don't have resources. They don't give us a handbook, what to do if your child develops a mental illness. It's not something, maybe more, it's a little more out there, I think. So it can be helpful to point people toward NAMI support groups or to host a family-to-family in your house of worship, uh, to let people know they're not alone. A lot of us don't want to talk because of stigma. But a book that really comforted me is by a rabbi and it's very famous. It's called When Bad Things Happen to Good People. And the, you know, I don't really waste my time figuring out why my son is ill. It doesn't really help me. I, you know, I think he has a place in this world. We all have a place in this world, but I'd I'd give anything for him not to have this particular place in the world. That just, you know, it's sad. We just had a whole relapse today. And that's what I'm dealing with after, you know, six months of relative success. Everything just fell apart today. So part of the reason it's the no casserole illness is that if somebody breaks their leg, you bring the casseroles until the leg heals, and then it's over, and then everybody gets back to normal. But families dealing with mental illness do not get to go back to normal. We get to go to a new normal. And if we're lucky, we might stay there. But I always say it's like a big game of shoots and ladders, only not the it's not fun because we climb and we climb and we climb and we climb and we draw the wrong card and we're back down to square two. And not just for us, but for my son, who was working full time. Um, and then COVID hit and he lost his job. And boom, the four things we need were you know, structure, purpose, love, reason to get out of bed in the morning. We're all knocked out from under him. And then he kicked out his own treatment and then he was back in the hospital. So shoots and ladders. And that's part of the reason that they people may come or you may come visit in the first psychiatric stay. But what if somebody's in the hospital for the eighth time? It's got to be hard for you to show up again. And we, you know, I realize that. So I think in that book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People, what sticks in my mind forever and ever was when when man cries out in anguish, God sends other people. That is, I've always taken great comfort in that. So that this particular rabbi, I'm sure you know his son had an illness that made him age and die quickly. And he remembers the nurse that got his son a violin the right size for him. Like so congregations helping each other and you know, forming communities and being open about your stories, and that matters a lot. And and saying those things, changing the language in the prayers, that matters a lot. So that's what I would say that uh you're probably facing an obstacle with stigma in the way. But if families do need connection with other people, if there's a way to make that happen, or even having the brochures out there, along with, oh, so you you know, you need a hip replacement, whatever those brochures are. But I've never I haven't yet seen a brochure that says one out of four families deals with mental illness. Is yours one of them? Here's how we can help.

SPEAKER_04 43:15

And my little uh theme song that I like to put in every now and then, I hate the word stigma. I actually call it discrimination because people are treated differently in terms of benefits, laws, um, just how they're treated. And so I think that's a stronger word always. You can not do much about stigma. It's kind of what people think, and but you can do something about discrimination and make sure people are treated uh the same. And if you have cancer, that can come back and people go to the hospital a second time. Um, so I think it's um if we think of it as the word discrimination, we're more geared to make change.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

So we're we're down to our last few minutes, and I just want to I always like to leave the last few minutes for anything we forgot to ask you, anything you would like to say, uh, or any anything else that you want to ask us about how maybe we as advocates can help you. Um raise your hand if you have a final word already to say. That's there's five of us here. So I think I've spoken enough. And I'm gonna call and up. There you go, rabbi.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Well, I uh being a faith leader, I brought a uh I brought a prayer. Um that's all right. Um this is from a really um a nice resource from uh the Reformed Jewish tradition called Where Healing Resides. Um and it's uh a book of prayers uh around all kinds of illness. Uh and there's a a prayer uh of healing for mental illness. Um so I just thought I'd read read the prayer from the book if that's that would be lovely. I'd be happy to send it to you uh or make it available uh to folks. I give this book out a lot um uh to folks. So it says, May the one who bless our ancestors bless me with strength and healing as I struggle with emotional distress and mental suffering. May walk in the footsteps of Jacob, King Saul, Miriam, Hannah, Naomi, who lived with dark moods, hopelessness, isolation, and terror, but survived. They led our people. Just as our father Jacob spent the night wrestling with an angel and prevailed, may I be granted the endurance to wrestle with pain and prevail night upon night. Grant me the faith to know that though, like Jacob, I may be wounded, shaped, and renamed by the struggle, still I will live on to continue an ever-unfolding, unpredictable path towards healing. May I not be alone on this path, but accompanied by family in all its forms, friends, caregivers, and sisters in the divine presence. Surround me with loving, kindness, grace, and companionship. Spread over me a sukatch alone, a shelter of peace and wholeness.

SPEAKER_05 46:01

That's beautiful. Thank you. I'm gonna throw in a last word that I would like all faith leaders to know that families are suffering silently, and also that those of us and this may be your story as well, Pastor, because I don't know your full story yet, but but definitely with schizophrenia, a big symptom is something called anasygnosia, which means they don't know that they're ill. So one of the hardest reasons that it's hard to treat is they don't want the help because this is what happened to my son today. He's like, My mother's making me take meds. I don't need the help, I don't need your prayer, you know. So that is something that just to be aware of that goes on in the minds of that half-naked woman that showed up. She didn't need the police, she didn't need the help. It is an actual symptom of the illness because the frontal lobes are impaired that they don't know they're ill. So I wanted to throw that out as kind of my last word. Do you have a prayer for us, Pastor?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

Um, I didn't have a farewell because I didn't just want to I did want to say uh thank you to all of you for what you're doing and for offering this podcast. I've listened to several episodes and referred people to it. And and I think just again being a voice of experience and companionship for folks who find themselves uh either in this journey within their own family or wanting to learn more to support others. Thank you for what you do. It's so important. And also want to let you know encourage folks to you know reach out to the your faith leader and talk to them about what they're offering in the church or you know, in their congregation and what perhaps we could do more of. Sometimes, you know, I've had people uh people reach out and say, you know, this word that you use that we don't say that anymore, that's offensive, or you know, even those kinds of things, that's helpful. We want most of us want to know and learn and do better. And so um help uh help us learn to support uh families uh better. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 48:11

Thank you. All right, well, I thank you both. And Rabbi, I'll see you Friday. And I I really see as a member of the congregation all the work that's going into making things better for families like mine. And I love the opportunity. Mimi and Amindy, any last thing that you wanted to?

SPEAKER_04 48:28

I just wanted to give a special thank you to Mariah because I won't see her until if all goes according to plan, till the fall, because she's on sabbatical and she made special time to be with us, even though she's already gone and not answering emails at the church and so forth. So thank you both for being here and especially Mariah on her on her sabbatical. And then if I might, speaking of uh being corrected on how things are said, we don't say that anymore. I just want to say for podcast listeners, we were corrected, the three of us moms here last time um are on our guest because we uh the guest was saying the mentally ill or schizophrenic people. And um, those are not things that we normally say. We didn't correct our guests, but I will just say uh thank you to the person who does have schizophrenia who contacted us and said that is old fashioned.

SPEAKER_05 49:26

So we all need correcting. We all do, we all do. Thank you so much. This has been Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches, and one rabbi and one pastor opening the conversation about faith and health and congregations and serious mental illness. Thank you for joining us. Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches with Randy Kay, Mindy Gryling, and Miriam Feldman. To get in touch with us or to learn more about our books, please visit our websites at MiriamHyfenfeldman.com, mindygryling.com, or randyk.com.