From Schizophrenia / Addiction, through Treatment, to Success: Carson's Story (Ep. 22)

Episode 22- From Schizophrenia and Pot Addiction, through Treatment, to Success: Carson's Story

Today we  talk with  Carson S. , who has an inspiring story to tell, from schizophrenia/addiction to sobriety/recovery success.  We talk about his life….what it used to be like, what his challenges have been (addiction/intrusive thoughts/SMI) , and how he is doing now…..and what advice he might give to others who need to have hope.

Mimi and I met Carson last week at a gathering at Rob Laitman’s home for his patients and families (see episode 18)  

• What happened when you were using marijuana?
• Did you realize that was an abnormal response?
• As your symptoms progressed, what did you think was happening?  Did you even suspect mental illness?
• Did your parents or family know what was going on?  What about teachers or friends?  Did they suspect anything?
• When was it that you finally realized you had a problem?
• Did you ever “hear voices”? If you did, could you tell they weren’t real?
• What other symptoms did you recognize?
• Were you afraid of the medication? Afraid of the doctors?
• Since we know you finally ended up on clozapine, you must have had a rough journey on previous medications?  Tell us about that.
• How was clozapine different?
• When did you notice improvement?  Were there specific things that changed or were different?
• You spent a year at Viewpoint Dual Recovery Center - what was that like?
• Have you had any challenges with wanting to use marijuana?
• What’s your life like today?
• It is very difficult to recover from the dual diagnosis of BOTH addiction and serious mental illness. 
• But as of today you seem to be managing this.  How did you do it? 
• What do you want other families to know?

Who Are the 3 Moms?

Randye Kaye -Broadcaster, Actress, Voice Talent, Speaker, and Author (“Ben Behind his Voices”)

Miriam Feldman – Artist, Mom, Author “He Came in With It”

Mindy Greiling – member of the Minnesota House of Representatives for twenty years. Activist, Legislator, Author (“Fix What You Can“)

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia. Three moms in the trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feldman, Mindy Gryling, and Randy Kaye. This is episode 22. And we kind of thought we would take the summer off, but we just can't seem to stay away from each other. So I'm excited. And this episode is just Carson's story. And we'll tell you in a minute about Carson and how we met him. And I guess Mimi, you know him from before. And this is a story that when I met Carson, he just inspired me so much. I I just hope I want to get the word out so that it can inspire other people. I just want to mention a couple of things first. First of all, Mimi, your book came out in paperback. What do we need to know about that? Is that um it's very exciting.

SPEAKER_05 1:00

It's in paperback, more affordable, um, available at all the places where there are books. And um that's the news.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

And that's the news. And the book is he came in with it, very, very highly acclaimed and a wonderful book. If you're this is the first time you've listened, we always assume people know about our books, but they may not. So, Mindy, anything new and exciting in your world? Your book is Fix What You Can, which you're still doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

Right. And my book was in paperback from the beginning. So I didn't, I chose to make it affordable. I so it came out in paperback to begin with. Um, my excitement is that our family was all together for the first time in over a year, and we were all in Washington, D.C., where Jim flew with us. He hasn't been there for a decade because he just wasn't up to it and wasn't doing well. And so that was very exciting for us to have him be so healthy that he wanted to go and he was excited, and we had all had a good time.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

That's so wonderful. What's you know, ordinary to other families is miraculous to us. So I'm really happy about that. And the only other thing I want to mention before we get right to our guest is that we have a new opportunity. And I just launched this and we'll find a way to get it on your websites, Mimi and Mindy, as well. But right now it's just living on mine. Somebody contacted me and said, would if people want to tell you their story, would it be helpful if they could just go on a website and click a link and just talk? And I said, sure, that would that would be fantastic. Sometimes people send us letters and tell us their stories, and we're gonna devote an episode in the future to other people's stories. And I thought it would be good to have some audio. And so right now on my website, Ben Behind His Voices.com, if you go there and you click on the menu where it says tell us your story, you'll see right there on the website, you click a link and you can just start talking. And if you don't like what you recorded, you can start all over, just like any voice message. And we've already gotten a couple of stories come in. There's also a link on there where you can click and hear other people's stories. So I'm pretty excited about this because we're not the only three moms going through this. We're not the only three families going through this. Look in the description box for who was kind enough to provide us with this opportunity for you to tell us their story. Last weekend, I got to meet Miriam Feldman herself and Nick in person. And we hugged, we hugged for real, our vaccinated selves hugged outdoors. And I got to meet Nick. And I, you know, I feel like I've known you both for years. Mindy, you and I have never yet met in real life, but we will. And I'm sure it will feel the same way it did with Mimi, which was just like, oh, it's Mimi. So that we didn't, we didn't get a lot of time to chat, but it was just that experience of having a real life encounter. And it was at Rob Layteman's house, and you can check our back episodes for the episode we did with Dr. Leyman about Clauserel and and about his team Daniel and the the family of people that he loves and treats, and everybody was there. And there we met the most incredible man who's gonna be with us in three seconds. In fact, Carson, if you can start your video, you can appear on the screen. Good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I'm doing well. I'm uh back in Arizona. Just got back from the party that we all had. It's quite a party that um Dr. Leitman threw.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Right. Now, had you met Dr. Lateman in person before?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

No, I had never met him before. And the man is he he's a pretty interesting guy. Um more of a myth than a man, really.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

That's yeah, that's kind of that's kind of interesting. And again, if you're listening and you don't know who we're talking about, there's a past episode where you can hear all about Dr. Laitman and the work he does. But Carson, I was so excited to talk to you and and your mom. Uh, but mostly I spoke to you about your story and your journey. And I just hope you'll tell us your story here. This is what this is all about. We don't have specific things to ask you, but I know you've gone from, should we say a low place to a place of incredible accomplishment? Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Um, yeah, I guess that that is fair to say to some extent. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

All right. So you you know Mimi, you met me. This is Mindy.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

And we all have sons with diagnoses of schizophrenia, although they may or may not agree with that diagnosis, but uh, they're all in their 30s, so I think a little older than you, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, I'm uh 21.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

You're 21, so you're you're earlier in the journey. And I, you know, I was just so inspired by your story. So I we would all just love to hear it. And just like any other moms, we're gonna ask you some questions, but why don't you start by by telling us in your own words a bit about your journey, like where you've been and what happened to turn you around, any way you want to say it.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Well, I do have kind of a lengthy journey, sort of. Um, I mean, a lot of people, you know, find that they have, you know, if you are going to develop some sort of a schizophrenia spectrum disorder. Um I I've personally found out, uh, I think around when I was 17 or so, um, not diagnosed, but I that's when things in my brain I could uh begin to tell we're not do we're not working correctly and we're going wrong. Um particularly um, I think my junior year of high school, I was uh um getting high a lot. I was smoking a lot of pot. And you know, um a lot of uh I think the medical opinion, the medical consensus, I guess, is that uh drugs like that can sort of in not necessarily induce, but more unlock um, you know, a person's symptoms who are predisposed to it. So I that may have happened in my case. I mean, who knows what ratio of predisposition to um drug use it was. Um, but you know, there's there's not really any uh history in my family of, you know, uh schizophrenia type disorders or really anything. Um so so it was an interesting time for me. Um, you know, I and the the most difficult part of it was is that I was very, very unhappy at the time. And I felt like I had a lot of things to do when the things in my mind started to uh do things they were not supposed to do, or you know, general symptoms, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:01

And are you are you willing to say more about what that felt like or what you and you don't have to share anything you don't want to share, but I haven't never really heard it from my own son. What all I remember is his saying to me, I used to be happy. Why am I not happy anymore? And can you share anything that you remember about that time, or you can just leave it at what you've said is fine.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Well, okay, so I I think I used to describe it a bit like um, you know, when you get, I guess when you smoke uh cannabis, right? Um you you have this sense of greater perception, I guess, um, and a little bit, you know, euphoria. I felt that I was having the perception without any of the euphoria. So it was uh overload of mental stimulation wherever I was. So if I was in class, I would like, you know, constantly my brain wouldn't stop thinking about, you know, the teacher and and oh my gosh, the students around me, and oh my gosh, what is it was almost like uh my mind was like a train that I couldn't stop and it was incredibly debilitating. I don't know if I can get the analogy across correctly, but um I I felt like my brain, I had no control of it, and it was flying around in different ways and and making up stories about you know paranoias and and all sorts of crazy stuff. And it was really absolutely terrible, especially given that I had a lot. Um the time when it hit me, it was probably my junior year of high school around then. I had a lot of responsibilities. Um, I was, you know, an AP student. I was taking freaking uh calculus three and differential equations. I was, you know, I was going into it or whatever. I think it may have been my senior year, but I was also I was I had just won like student body president. I won the the school election and I played on the football team and I ran track and we had just gone to state my junior year, uh, because I I ran the in the four by four relay and we had done pretty well. I think we placed like fifth at state, but you know, we were going for you know higher. So I had a lot of stuff like lined up in my life, you know. I I wanted to, you know, get good grades in math and you know, do well in track and do well in football and et cetera, and you know, have friends, have a girlfriend or something, right? Like um, but the symptoms in my mind were so just intense that I had incredible trouble really focusing on anything. Um and just like my my emotions were tied up into these thoughts, right? So if you're having constantly panicking thoughts about everyone, you know, looking at you like, oh, that person doesn't like me, you know, oh that person's gonna tell other people that they don't like me, right? You know, it's really hard to focus on the things that are important in your life. So, you know, my senior year football season was absolutely horrible. I couldn't really focus on anything. And, you know, I I didn't do super well, I not as well as I did my junior year. Um and it was difficult. And then track, which I I enjoyed more. So when the spring came around, I guess, of my senior year, and these were still the symptoms didn't go away. I didn't tell anyone about them because I was really ashamed of them. I I didn't want to be seen as different, I didn't want to be seen as weak. Um just because I didn't want to be that kid that's you know has schizophrenia. And you know, no one really wants to admit that, right? Especially at a young age. Um you know, now of course it's a little different. But at the time I was I was completely closed off. I had crazy stuff going in my mind, and it wasn't like no one knew that because I didn't tell them. A lot of people thought I was acting weird, sort of. Um but yeah, my one of the biggest disappointments, you know, I I try not to say regrets because you know we we live our lives and and obviously things don't go our way, but my one of my biggest disappointments is that I didn't get to run track my senior year because all my friends were on the track team. Our track coach, you know, believed in us so much. Um, and you know, I even did we were doing a bunch of off-season workouts with him, and we even went to an off-season meet. But after that, you know, I couldn't separate my brain from all of the insanity that it was thinking about and and connecting things. I couldn't even separate it enough to just focus on a running a workout. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Did it did it scare you?

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, it scared me because you know, I thought, you know, when you're growing up, you kind of trust that, you know, nature, you know, at certain age I'll I'll grow taller. At a certain age, I'll, you know, go to high school and have friends and then etc. You don't really expect your brain to completely, you know, go haywire and and and not be able to stop it.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Um did you have any of those feelings before you used pot, or did they all come afterwards, or was it some before and some after?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Not really before. Um, you know, I it took a while. I always had a bit of a strange reaction to pot in general. Um, but you know, more and more and more became that, you know, even when I wasn't high, I was having plenty of mental things going on, right? And none of the euphoria. So it was sort of a terrifying, terrifying world my brain was creating. Um, and you know, that really led to impulsiveness on my part, you know, because my brain would lead me to say, Oh, you need to do this, or you need to do that. And I think I was doing like really crazy stuff. Like I like completely disassembled a printer once, or you know, I would we've all seen things like that in our sons.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

There's no, there's no shame here, believe me.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, yeah, that was that was a thing. So yeah, I as I was saying, a huge disappointment was not being able to run track because eventually I made a decision, which I may have been, you know, a mature decision on my part that said, you know, I can't do this. I need to focus on you know myself and my brain and my you know well-being. Um, but unfortunately, that is not where things stopped. That was not the happy ending because you know that was when I was 17. I'm 21 now. Um things have gone on for a while. So I I I went to college um uh you know in 2018, I think I started at Arizona State, and I took the opportunity of being, you know, not in the house to smoke a lot more pot. Um so and you know, nowadays, um, you know, the quickest, easiest is with like wax cartridges. I don't know if you guys know what they are, but they're they're little things that you attach to a to a to a pen, sort of like a vape, um, but they're up to 98% THC, which is you know the active chemical and marijuana, and it's what primarily gives you the you know the effects. You know, they sell CBD stuff because it's it's sort of the the negative, you know, and then it balances out.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Right. There's those two, those, yeah. So this was a lot straight a lot stronger. So it's kind of like e-cigs, but it's with pot. I know about dabbing. I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So well, it's uh it's similar to dabbing, it's like a little um similar to e-cigarettes. It's a cartridge that has you can see the oil in it in like a little glass container, and it uh you just suck on it and it creates smoke, which you know gets you high. I mean, it's pretty simple, okay, cheap, they don't smell, so you know, a lot of high school kids, you know, bring it into their high schools, get in trouble for it eventually, stuff like that. But yes, I was not taking care of myself and my well-being. I would do things like being in college, um, I was in the honors dorms, um, and I would stay up all night getting high, and then at the crack of dawn, the second the um school gym opened, and Arizona City is a huge university, it has a massive gym. At 6 a.m. I would go, I would go work out because it was you know part of my strange delusion uh compulsions. You know, like I felt as if if I were working out and doing strong, it didn't matter that I was not going to class, sleeping all day and getting high at night.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Um pretty much parents have a clue what was going on. You know, I know I felt very clueless lots of times, and you seem like you did really well in school, and you know, you're obviously really articulate. And um, you know, I knew my son wasn't doing well in school, and he didn't articulate everything as well as you did. So I'm wondering if your parents were more fooled because you were doing so well, or is it just you were so smart you were able to mask your symptoms, or did they give you any input that they knew what was going on?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Well, I I was not doing well, actually, in college. Um, I was not doing well because I wasn't going to class, I wasn't doing my homework. Um, it just was not a priority for me at the time. Um, and that's sort of what they what they, you know, my parents, I think my my older sister, she helped them like look up my grades or something after a few weeks in the full, you know, my first semester of college, and they were like, your grades are horrible, you haven't been going to class. And they they took that as sort of a okay, this is strange. We need to talk to him. And that's pretty much right then when they picked me up. I got in trouble at the ASU dorms. I can't even remember what. It's probably just for walking around being too stoned. Um, they just they said, you know what, this guy can't be here. So after that, I got sent to my parents decided to send me to a site ward. Um, a place and it's quite a horrible experience. Um, one does not ever really enjoy being a psych ward. I had to go to this holding place before they could find me a bed in another psych ward. And it was really horrible. I had to spend like 48 hours like in a chair, like in some room. Um, and then I went to the psych ward and they have, you know, I was I was put on court-ordered treatment. Um, and then they, you know, they assign a doctor to you to start doing meds. And um the meds they they give you, they like start everyone off with RISPR doll. Risperdone. It's uh antipsychotic, it's been around forever. It's like, I guess that's what they start with.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

And did it do anything for you? Did it help you at all?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Or I had so tartive dyspenia is um often a symptom of antipsychotics, which is essentially uh you can't control your muscles, I guess. And um, I guess that can manifest as shaking. For me, the the the TD from the um from the wrist or doll was uh it was pretty intense. My lips wouldn't stop moving. Um, it would be like strange. I'd be like, it looked like I was whistling and also trying not to whistle at the same time. And my right arm would actually float up into the air like like a shoulder muscle was contracting. Um, and that was actually happening. It was very strange. Uh, and I think that the staff there told my parents that um I was faking it, but I was not faking it. And this the crazy thing is is that that stuff can be permanent uh if it if it goes on for too long.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Um yeah, I thought that was just howldol. I didn't know it was a RisperDoll side effect, but you experienced it, so you know. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Well, it's not only HALDOL I saw I I we got I got off the Risper doll um and then they put me on a Bilify. I didn't want to go on Haldol because I had seen people on Haldol and they were like zombies. I they also put me on Zyprex at one point and I was a zombie, uh, but then they put me on a Bilify. At that point, I like because I was really angry, I was yelling at the doctors. I'm like, let me out of here, you know.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

Let me ask you something. Um, sorry to interrupt, but I'm really curious. What did you think was happening then? Did you think nothing was wrong with you? Did you think you did have a mental illness? What was what were you thinking during this?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

So I I knew that I was having problems in my brain and that things were going wrong. Um, but I really did not like anyone telling me what to do. Um, I did not like my parents, you know, petitioning me to have a court order to put me in the sideboard. I did not like being forced to take meds. I felt like that, you know, I wanted to, yeah, I was just fighting everyone and everything because I'd felt you know disrespected. I felt, you know, put down. Like it was really um quite awful. But in my in my mind, yes, I knew that I had problems with my brain, but I really wanted to just solve them by myself, you know, by some means. Um, and I was really angry with uh with authority figures at that time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

Do you feel better about your family now, now that you're doing so well, or do you still feel anger?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I'll get there. I'll get there. We'll get in our way, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

All right, so you're so there you are trying various what I call Russian roulette of medication, but I I know it's That's we we've all been through it with our sons, anyway. Was that your lowest point, or did you have a really, really low point that was a turning point for you? Or or you discontinued, just go ahead with the story.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Well, your own. I would say this is around probably my lowest point. Um, I got out of the psych ward after like a month in there. Um, and I was on Abilify, which is an antipsychotic as well. And um, that stuff, I just wanted to get out so bad, like I didn't even tell them about the uh side effects I was having. I was also having a variant of TD where you shake my legs when it stands still. Um, if I wanted to like, you know, do something with my hands, my hands would shake. I could never, you know, if I wanted to thread a needle, I don't sew or anything, haven't probably threaded a needle in years, but but I would not have been able to.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Um, so yeah, I I was having those those side effects, but I just wanted to get out of the sideboard so bad um that you know I I just dealt with it. So for a few months, um, I was getting the abilify injection, and um I was I really wanted to get high. I was very, very interested in getting high. Um, my my mom wanted me to try uh a youth group, an enthusiastic sobriety group. I was like 18 at this time. Um and and I did go to it uh to a few of their events, meetings, etc. And I really, really disliked it. Um mostly because I was so in my head, I was so angry. I didn't want to have any part in all these fun dancing and house parties and stuff. I would just sit there in the corner, just like angry at everything, at everyone, just mad because you know, I'm yeah, I I couldn't stop thinking about, you know, the totality, like I'm so small, I'm never gonna do anything. I'm you know, but a bunch of bad, you know, negative self-talk and and and really just uh dread in in a huge way. And you know, to to medicate for that, I'd get high, but that really only compounds the effect when you're not high. So um, so yes, after that, apparently eventually my parents put me back in a psych ward. I was only in there for I can't remember how long. I was having crazy dreams, put me on some other stuff. Um, I got out, and then eventually one day my parents just they had last straw, they sent me to rehab to treatment um for you know marijuana use disorder, um, as well as I went to a dual diagnosis place in uh Prescott, Arizona. So they treat um addiction to drugs or alcohol, and uh as well as mental disorders. And the two go hand in hand in a lot, a huge amount of the population that's going to places like that. Um, you know, people who are using drugs often have serious mental issues, you know, who knows what, often, you know, possible schizophrenia spectrum disorders, bipolar, you know, acute, I I, you know, long-term depression, etc. You know, you see a lot of it. And, you know, going to treatment, I was so, so angry about it. Um, I didn't want to, I just for the same reasons. I didn't want people controlling my life telling me what to do. Now I have to go to a treatment place, and it's gonna suck. Um, but really, that was the moment that things uh begin to change for me.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Um okay, so so there you are. You're angry, you're young, you're struggling, you don't want to do anything. That was your mother's idea. I know that's always a part of what my son wants. Right. And you you clearly have an addiction problem, and you are where you don't want to be, and suddenly things turn around. So, can you tell? No, I don't, I don't know if it was suddenly, I assumed that, and I didn't. So tell us about the turnaround and and what happened next.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

So the turnaround did not start the first day I was in treatment. However, well, I I suppose I suppose it it it began in some respects, as in uh going there was good for me, whether I knew it or not, um, especially at the beginning, right? And you know, I got there and I'm with a lot of people who have a lot of similar problems, which is kind of nice, you know, not that they have difficult, you know, issues, but that I'm you know in a place where people understand me um to a to a good level. And you know, Prescott, Arizona is a treatment capital of uh of pretty much anywhere I assume, you know, there is a massive population because there's so many uh rehabs there. I can probably name like six or seven of them off the back of my hand, and Prescott is only a pop that has a population of about 50,000 people. And so so yeah, I go up to Prescott, Arizona, which is you know sort of small town vi. Um it's up in the mountains of northern Arizona, so it's not desert, it's um it's pine trees, and it's really nice. And you know, I go there, I live in a house with a couple, you know, a few other guys who have their own addiction problems, have their own mental health problems. And you know, I I talk to people, we go to uh pretty much uh an AA or an NA, which is narcotics and honors. We've been all familiar. All days, uh HA, CMA. I went to tons of CMA meetings. Not that I do ever did crystal meth, but but they really don't care what you're what you're there for.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

So just just for framework, can you tell us how many weeks or how many days or how many months you were there in this rehab? Because it sounds like it was very powerful for you.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

So what they do is at least at the rehab I was at, they had three phases. Uh phase one lasted for two weeks, where they take your phone, they don't let you have any contact to anyone outside, they don't they don't let you use like the house phone. Um and you know, at the time I was pissed, uh, but you know, now I see that's probably a good thing because you need to really stabilize a person, um, especially you know, right at right while they're getting clean. Um and then yeah, after you stay there a while, you get on to phase two where you um they want you to begin volunteering, and then phase three, you need to have a job, and then you exit. And the the plan is 90 days, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Um, however, there is a massive amount of variability in how long you stay there. Um, some people get out within 90 days, like they they do their stuff and they're totally good about it, but you know, I was not very good about it. My my therapist counselor, um, you know, I I kept telling her about the problems I was having, and they were not willing to release me. Uh, the medications were not working as they were supposed to, so they they wanted to keep me there, um, which was the right, the right move. Um, so I ended up staying there for a year, over a year.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Oh, okay. All right. And then so I also know that obviously that was a very powerful year for you. I also know that at some point you met Dr. Leitman and I imagine had your medication switched to closeral. And I'm I I'm curious to see if if that made a difference. And before I ask you that, and you can answer this or not, you're totally safe here to say I don't want to answer that. Do you would you ever say that you heard voices or had hallucinations? Is that ever a way you would describe what was going on with you in the past, or is that not a way you would describe it?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I would describe it that way. Um, those things did happen to me. Uh, very similar to uh um symptoms that I hear from other patients. Uh, you know, I was hearing voices, let's say like coming from other people, right? Not I knew they weren't speaking, but I felt like their energy was was saying things to me, like I hate you, and you know, you're a terrible person. Um, you know, all while I'm in sitting in class trying to write an essay or something, right? I don't want to I don't want to feel these things, but yes, uh voices definitely um I think hallucinations to some extent. I I felt like I saw people like glowing or something on like on the edges of my vision. So it was it was interesting, but yes, there were certain uh auditory and visual types of stuff that a lot of people have. Um yes, but I uh yeah, those um those sort of tapered off towards the end may have been um due to the medications working a little bit, but um yes, I had symptoms like that, and uh it took a while for them to to work themselves out. And I did not stop start closetine um with Dr. Latman. I I started it with just my doctor uh in Arizona, and then we sort of connected to Dr. Leiteman because we heard, you know, through the grapevine, we my mom bought his book, um, you know, that this is the guy in the United States uh who's doing stuff with closapine and doing a lot of good stuff with it.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Yeah. And having so this is so, you know, you you're so funny and so smart, and it's such a delight to talk to you. I I'd like, can you share where you are now and how you think you got there?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Well, so currently I'm in I uh I'm 21. I went into treatment when I was 19, I left it when I was 20, so I've been out a little over a year now. Um, I have over two years of sobriety from every anything. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. It's uh actually interesting. I go to a lot of uh meetings, right? Like AA meetings or whichever meeting is being held. I've noticed down here in I live in Tempe, which is near Phoenix, there's not as many varieties of meetings that I went to up in Prescott, but I go to plenty. And sometimes I'm a guy there who has you know more sobriety with than a lot of other guys or or gals coming in, you know. Um people literally just getting sober, they're eight days clean, and you know, they they really need help and guidance, and I feel like I can be there for for them. So yeah, two years sober, clean and sober. Um I went have gone back to ASU, um, and I'm studying mathematics and computer systems engineering, um, getting good grades, right? Wow, wow. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

You're actually going to class this time, I assume.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, yeah, I've been going to yes, I've been yes indeed.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

It helps.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yes, it does. It helps.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Were you ever afraid of clozapine at the beginning, or were your parents or anybody? Because you know, some people build it up that it has all these side effects, or you're going to gain a lot of weight. And obviously, you did not gain a lot of weight. Were your side effects addressed at the beginning? Did they tell you about what they might be so you could help prevent them? Or how did that go?

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Well, I actually did gain a lot of weight, um, but it wasn't from closapine. It was pretty much from the other stuff that I was on. Uh, that stuff caused me to gain a lot of weight. We pretty much moved to closipine um because nothing else was really working. So I wasn't, I was not afraid of it. I was like, okay, we'll try this. Um, and I trust you that you think this is a good decision. I wasn't afraid of it or anything. I, you know, of course, there are um doctors and sort of in like the the the psychiatry world, um, they use closapine really late because I think a huge portion of it is because you know, there's a whole registry for your blood draws and and et cetera. Um, but it's a it's a great medicine that helps a lot of people. Um but yes, I didn't I didn't really have any fears of it. But eventually when I moved there, that was you know when I stabilized. Um, and I wouldn't say it was a hundred percent meta uh, you know, medicine that that helped me, you know, move out of this dark place. Um, but it certainly helped create, you know, stop the the craziness in the brain and that allowed me to focus finally on myself, on what I want my future, you know, on relationships, you know, the just attracting good things into my life. Um and so that's why I say when I went to rehab treatment, um, rehab treatment are synonyms pretty much, uh, in the in the rehab slash treatment world. Um you know, after I was there maybe nine months, you know, I was volunteering at this veterans thrift store. I was um going to, I I'd started some classes at ASU online, right? I I was taking like the basics, I was taking English one-on-one, you know, just to give it a shot. Previously, like a few months earlier, I tried a summer class, um, like an engineering course, but I couldn't do it. I didn't have the level of focus. But eventually I gained that. And, you know, you build up slow, slowly and slowly. And, you know, at this point, I mean, I'm scheduled to take, I don't know, three or four classes coming up within a couple weeks or so. So, you know, I mean, there there is hope for anyone, really. Um, it can be hard to see and hard to find. Um, it really anyone has funks. I mean, no one goes through life not being, you know, depressed about something or disappointed about something or anxious about something. Uh, it's just people with you know schizophrenia experience that in different ways, and these ways may be incredibly harmful to themselves and to others. Um, but yeah, it's uh it's a process.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

And you do give us hope. So thank you for thank you for that. I have one question. Um since you're doing so well and you've been sober for two years and you've been on clozapine, how much do you attribute to the clozapine and how much to being uh sober? Would you say 50-50, or is there one that helps more than the other?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

You know, I I think I would say around 50-50. I mean, it's kind of a difficult, difficult question to answer. Um, but certainly those are two part, two parts of my life. I mean, you know, it's hard to hard to know how much the uh the clozepine does. Um, but you know, it puts me in a zone, an environment where I can live my life. And I've you know chosen to eliminate, you know, drugs or alcohol from my life because they're harmful to me and um they're they're more dangerous for me than the average bear. Um so yeah, I I don't know if I could qualify as that, but there's two things that you know are important in my life, but they're just one of many factors. Two of many factors.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

I'm just wondering what your childhood was like. Did you did you have an easy childhood? Did you feel part of the the group? Yeah, I mean, how how were you when you were a kid? And how was the kid?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

You know, I was a normal kid. Um, you know, I liked animals. Uh animals were were pretty cool. Um I don't know. I was a normal kid, really. I mean, I you know, went through middle school. I was a brat, right? Like, you know, everyone is. I have two younger siblings. Um, you know, one they're both newly minted teenagers. One of them's just starting high school. Um and you know, you go through normal stuff then. Um, but yeah, I would say it was it was it was just a regular upbringing until it took you know a left turn really uh into you know a really dangerous place.

SPEAKER_05 38:13

So you don't feel like you have an inordinate amount of stress or anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And you know, if if any like are you staying at the moment or pre-early?

SPEAKER_05 38:22

No, I mean and growing up, like when you were a kid. You know a lot of times they draw a correlation between trauma or or anxiety and stress and the onset of these um these psychotic disorders. So I'm just wondering what you if you had any of that.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

I, you know, I anything that may be uh, you know, um, that may apply to me because you know, I did put some stress on myself, you know. I as you know, as I may have said earlier, I wanted to do well in school, I want to do well in sports, you know, I want to, you know, be good at everything, I guess. And and you know, I felt maybe a lot of stress, which drove me to, you know, get high a lot, created an addiction, which you know pushed in uh psychological problems. So so so perhaps that's where something originated from. Um, though I'm not I I can't be a hundred percent sure, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

I I have oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah, I well, this would this would be sort of a final question from me, which so Mindy, if you have something else to ask, why don't you go first and then and then I'll do kind of a wrap-up question.

SPEAKER_04 39:35

Sure. My final question, Carson, is knowing what you've been through, and then you said 50-50 might have been the marijuana. Um, do you have do you give your siblings any advice about using drugs or marijuana?

SPEAKER_00 39:49

You know, I I do have younger siblings, and you know, they they have had certain, you know, things they get in trouble for, I guess, you know. Um, but yeah, you know, I I I feel like I just have to be there for them um and know that, you know, I I should give them my own personal experience. I don't want to sugarcoat anything. I don't want to, you know, not practice what I preach. You know, I'm not much of a preacher, anyways, but um, you know, I I feel like being genuine with them and explaining to them that, you know, I've had problems, you know, you may have problems, know that problems are completely a possibility, you know, because I didn't think that I didn't think it was really going to happen at all. I didn't even really consider um that out of you know a certain level of drug use, mental issues could arise. I didn't think about it, I didn't know. So I would like them to know, um, really anyone to know that depending on the person, depending on what's you know, the level of use, where you are in life, things can be dangerous. Um, so yeah, that's what I would say to them. And what I that's what I do say to them.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

So that's wonderful. That is great. So if my son were here right now, and he is older than you, uh, and not quite where you are, although he has a a lot of accomplishment. He's completed 60 college credits and until COVID recently wrecked his life, he was working full time, so he's doing quite well, happened to be on clause pine. He's not on it right now, but he's he's doing all right, but struggling with marijuana addiction. So it's boy, do I wish I could stick the two of you in a room. But but he is going to meetings and and so he's he's getting uh he seems to be taking his sobriety seriously, we hope, 22 days in after 35 days and the slip up. You know, it's a it's a road, it's a road of shoots and ladders. But my here, yeah, go ahead, respond to that, and then I'll ask you my actual question I was leading up to.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

I I well just know that meetings um are really healthy environments for really anyone to meet, uh, because it's full of a bunch of people who you know are are thinking about very important things, you know, things in their life, their character defects, as they're called, and talking about, you know, their trials and and and and really important fundamental things. Um and I would I would encourage anyone to you know check out a meeting at some point. I mean, there's certain meetings, especially speaker meetings, where um, you know, a person will share for 45 minutes about their entire experience. And um, some of those can be pre-crazy. You're like, wow, this this guy can get his life on track to that, anyone can.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, stories do that. My question here is about taking medication potentially for the rest of your life in order to keep a brain in balance. I'm assuming it. So I know that for my son, who really does quite well when he's on the medication, and like you, it's not just the treatment. It it's it's who he is that helps him succeed. It's having a purpose, it's having structure, it's having love. All of these things help. I would never attribute success to just medication, but I do know from my observation that anytime he has stopped taking medication, he has wound up back in the hospital. And I'm not always the one to put him there. It's sometimes the police, it's many other things. He does very well and can succeed very well when he's in treatment. But I know given, I'm not asking you to solve my son's problems, I'm using him to represent other people. Given his druthers, what he'd rather do, if he were in his own apartment and not having a nurse come to visit, he would probably voluntarily stop taking medication. If you had any advice for someone in that situation who wishes more than anything else to just stop, stop. With whatever medication is helping keep their brain in balance, what would you tell them if you could?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

I had a thought. I would say to them, you know, understand the patterns that you put yourself in. You know, um, obviously, you know, you can see unhealthy things in your life. And until you recognize that it's unhealthy and it's it's healthy for me to be around people that love me, it's healthy for me to push myself to do things not just for myself, um, and understand that taking the medicine, you know, maybe it's not what you want, but it could be the the right thing for you and um, you know, allow you to to be in a better place than you were.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Okay, thank you. If you meet a girl or a guy, I don't know, you know, but I mean someone that you might have a potential relationship with, can you are you willing to tell us if you share at some point that that you medication helps you keep in balance? Like a diabetic might say they need insulin. Is that something you not with strangers, obviously, but if you're going to get into a deep friendship or relationship with someone, is this something you talk about or you keep it to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 45:22

I would completely talk about it. I would not keep it to myself at all because you know, you don't I you you would never like keep that secret from you know a person who's that close. Obviously, yeah, like you said, complete strangers. I'm not, you know, perhaps if the context, if I'm in a in a waiting room at Dr. Leitman's place, I might start talking about what meds I'm on. Um, but yeah, in terms of like a like a relationship like that, I feel like it's something you know you you shouldn't be afraid to be open about. And I feel like a lot of people um in my situation, a lot of the kids, you know, who were at Dr. Leitman's party that I met, they're all really open about it, which is cool. Um so yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

We have come to near the uh near the end. I just want to give anybody a chance to have any any final words. I just want to thank you, Carson. You have been a godsend. I think your story is gonna help and inspire a lot of people and lead to more understanding. So I just want to thank you.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

I'll say, I'll say ditto what she said. Thank you, Carson.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Very cool.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

All right, any final words, Carson?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Um uh just thanks for having me. Um, you guys are great. I think you know, your your sons are incredibly lucky to have you know people that love them like you guys. Um and yeah, I wish you guys well.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Thank you so much. And I know I don't know your mom, but I did meet her briefly, and I um betting she's really, really proud of you. So thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches with Randy K, Mindy Gryling, and Miriam Feldman. To get in touch with us or to learn more about our books, please visit our websites at MiriamHyfenfeldman.com, mindygryling.com, or randyk.com.