Schizophrenic NYC: Define Normal, Defy Stigma and Homelessness (ep 59)

Guest: Michelle Hammer 

Michelle Hammer is a Schizophrenia Activist and spends her time passionately fighting stigma.

Michelle was diagnosed with schizophrenia at 22 after a misdiagnosis of bipolar at age 18. 

At 27, Michelle decided to use her artistic talents and fearless personality to do something that could benefit the mental health community. 

She founded Schizophrenic.NYC -  a clothing brand with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. 

We Ask

What did Schizophrenia feel like for you? What is your story?

How are you now, and what treatment works for you?

NYC Mayor Adam’s homeless initiative - thoughts?

What are your thoughts about involuntary hospitalization?

How important is coordinating discharge planning once a person is in the hospital?

Do you think it is wise to have cops make determinations of mental fitness?

The connection between homelessness and mental illness.

Links:

https://www.schizophrenic.nyc/

https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/video/video-living-with-schizophrenia

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-bipolar-a-schizophrenic-and-a-podcast/id1594381452

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/01/eric-adams-mentally-ill-homeless-nyc-hospitals.html

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-11-29/mayor-eric-adams-says-nyc-will-treat-mentally-ill-even-if-they-refuse

“These New Yorkers and hundreds of others like them are in urgent need of treatment, yet often refuse it when offered,” Mayor Eric Adams said at a news conference, noting that the pervasive problem of mental illness has long been out in the open. “No more walking by or looking away,” the mayor said, calling it “a moral obligation to act.”

Mindy and her book: https://mindygreiling.com/

Randye and her book: https://benbehindhisvoices.com/

Miriam and her book: https://www.miriam-feldman.com/

Hosts:

Who:

Randye Kaye - was a morning Radio Personality bringing humor to CT families when her own son was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Now she is still a Broadcaster, Actress, Voice Talent, Speaker, and Author (Ben Behind his Voices, Happier Made Simple)

Miriam Feldman -  is an artist, writer, and the mother of an adult son with schizophrenia. Her book, He Came in With It chronicles her family's story and was released to rave reviews on July 21st, 2020.

Mindy Greiling - Mindy Greiling was a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives for twenty years. She helped found the nation's first state mental health caucus, which successfully lobbied for a significant increase in Minnesota's mental health funding Her acclaimed memoir is Fix What You Can.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Like I will crack up with the voices. Like, it's like I'll remember a scenario that happened, and then we just go through it, and I'm laughing hysterically. So, like, yeah, that I do sometimes have a great time, but I'd rather not have them at all.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Michelle Hammer started hearing voices in high school, has been hospitalized at least three times, and is now not just living with schizophrenia, but proudly claiming schizophrenic.nyc, and has a clothing brand with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. So in today's episode, the three moms chat with Michelle, talk about her voices, her treatment, her mission, and about a homelessness initiative in New York City that has its supporters and its questioners. Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia. Three Moms in the Trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feltman, Mindy Gryling, and Randy Kay. Welcome, welcome to episode 59. We are so excited about our guests today. We're going to dive right in. The title of today's episode is Schizophrenic NYC: Define Normal, Defy Stigma, and Talk About Homelessness. And I'm going to bring it right over to Mimi because Mimi, you've been chatting with our guest, and I'm going to let you introduce her and we'll get going.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Okay. Well, I first came across Michelle really a couple of years ago in one of my manic uh internet sweeps, trying to find the thing that was going to pull Nick out of his shell and back into our world. And I was quite taken with her merchandise and everything that she's doing, which we'll talk about. And I reached out to her then, and she's very kind to answer me. And we talked for a while. It was sort of a pointless thing. I was really trying to ask her like, how can I save Nick? Which she didn't know how to do, of course. But um, but she was very gracious and nice. And now that we're back and we're doing this, I just wanted to bring her on to talk about this stuff. So Michelle Hammer is a schizophrenia activist and spends her time passionately fighting stigma. She's a New York City native. Um, she was diagnosed with schizophrenia at 22 after a misdiagnosis of bipolar at 18. At 27, Michelle decided to use her artistic talents and fearless personality to do something that would benefit the mental health community. In May of 2015, she founded a mental health-focused clothing line, clothing brand, schizophrenic.nyc. It's a clothing brand with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health. And um, I think we should just start with that. Um, that's who she is and what she does. And we'd like to hear about that. So, Michelle, just off the bat, what's the thing that you would most want our audience to know about what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

About what I'm doing, what they what I about about myself? Um, that that's a good question. Um well, uh what I that's a hard question, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Let me let me rephrase it a little bit because we we do want to hear your story, but if we were to say, what do you most want us to come away with from hearing your story? And then we'll hear the story.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

I I guess I just want people to understand that you know, if you get diagnosed with schizophrenia, your life is not over. I like to say that it was the best thing that ever happened to me because then I could be treated for the correct illness.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

So can you give us a little bit of background about your story, a little bit about your road?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, sure. So um I think like things started happening mostly when I was in high school. I suffered for a lot of like a lot of like negative symptoms. I wasn't talking a lot, I wasn't speaking, and I was very paranoid. My mom tried to get me help, but because I was so paranoid at everything she did, I thought she was trying to hurt me or sabotage me in some way. So when I go to college, I think, you know, my mom's gone. I've no, she's not sabotaging me anymore. Every, you know, I go for a while, things are good, and then all of a sudden I think that my roommate is trying to hurt me or sabotage me. And that was when it just kind of like just the click in my head, oh no, it was me the whole time, you know. So that's when I decided to go to the, you know, the school health center to try to get some sort of help. And within about 15 minutes, this guy went through a checklist and told me that I was bipolar and handed me a pamphlet with some crying girl on the cover. Yeah, so that's really helpful, right? And then he sends me to the school school psychologist who puts me on medication and doesn't tell me any side effects, doesn't tell me anything about it, just take this, these medicines. And then I remember going to her the next week, and she didn't even remember that she had to give me any maybe a prescription at all. So things didn't go so well, you can imagine, because I'm I'm not bipolar, so those meds didn't work for me. And throughout college, I ended up in this like word three separate times. So, you know, that was fun. Yeah, yeah, you can imagine. So after college, I no longer saw like, well, I ended up seeing another doctor in town. So I he finally gave me a medication where I took this medication, and then finally, like the paranoia was gone. All of it was just gone. And I was just thinking, is this how like regular people feel? Like I've never felt so good. Cause like, and then I took it as like I tried to think of all of the things that bothered me so much and that just drove me crazy, and it didn't bother me anymore. And I was like, wow, this is amazing! Like, this is life. Like, is this what life is supposed to be like? It was amazing. But then I graduate college, I'm no longer seeing that doctor, I'm not on that medication, and I told my mom, you know, I need to go see a doctor. She's like, Oh, I found you a great therapist with decades of experience. No, when you say that, you have to think about a little bit of who that person's gonna be. When they have decades of experience and you're a 22-year-old girl, that means you're seeing a therapist who's extremely, extremely old. That's what it means.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

As are we, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I know, I get I understand that, but I was 22, and this woman was at least probably 70 years old, and I'm 22. So it's like it, and I think she was English also. So it's very hard for me to relate to this woman. And like she even said to me the strangest thing, she said, you're not acting like a woman of your attractiveness should be acting like. And I was just like, What in the world, lady? Like, you're not acting like a woman who charges so much should be acting like. Like, what are you talking about? But basically, my whole thing with her was to try to get go to a psychiatrist because I don't like therapy that much anyway. Like, I don't just want to like just talk about things all the time. Like, I just wanted to be medicated and just like, you know, just blankly do it, whatever. So she sends me to the psychiatrist that was in that office. And I've never had a more blunt discussion with a man. And that's why it worked because I'm very New York. Like, I people like to say, you know, you beat around the bush. I'm that person with the lawnmower that just mows down the bush. Like that's how it goes. And that's why me and this guy got along because there was asking me some questions, and I was like, I'm not gonna answer that. And he was like, You paid $600 for this session, you're gonna answer these questions. And I was like, I like this guy, I like him.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

It's very New York. I'm a New Yorker too, so I totally get you.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Okay, right. So, like that was like how I could manage. I liked him, and I've been seeing this guy since I was 22. To however old I am now, I'm not even gonna say, but I'm older now, maybe over 10 years. Maybe I'm not gonna say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But like with him, we I mean, we worked on many different medications, worked at different things, you know. I've been seeing him for so long, but like we finally got to that combination that that works.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

And I so you never had any experience of um anasygnosia or not understanding or knowing that you were sick.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Well, in in college, well, in high school, I didn't believe I was sick. I thought I was right, you know, I'm not paranoid, I'm right. You know, people are assholes and everyone does hate me. I'm right, you know, things like that. Or like in college, I was like, I'm not bipolar, I'm you know, I have no mental illness. I just like running around all the time. I I like this playing like this. I I like, you know, I don't have mental illness, I don't need medication. Like I was like, I was in the psych ward and the next week, I like week I was like, let's go out to the bar. And our my friends were like, Michelle, like, let's like wait, wait, like, you know, don't go out again. And they're like, What are we waiting for? Why do I have to wait? You know, things like that. Like, I didn't believe I was mentally ill for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

But can I ask you a question that I've never been able to ask my son? Yeah, yes. So I think you know who we are. We're three moms. We each have sons with schizophrenia, which is why I especially like to talk with women who are diagnosed with schizophrenia, because it uh it's be it's outside of uh we we've interviewed a few people outside of my experience as the mother of a son. Um, my our sons all had got symptomatic. Well, maybe when you did, but it was clearer sooner than 22. I know they didn't really get to college. But I would like to ask you if you're willing to answer it. What that felt like to you in high school, a young girl suddenly, suddenly hearing voices or suddenly having thoughts. I I don't know if you knew they were voices. Like, how do you know they're voices if that's the way you've always thought? So can you share what it felt like to you? Was it scary? Was it you, you know, before you went into Lone Oh, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, did a voice like come out of the blue, or had you always heard it and they got louder? Can you describe that at all?

SPEAKER_00 10:23

It's weird because I didn't think it was a voice. I thought everybody had this in their head. And it was just after everything I said, that was really stupid. Why did you say that? After everything I did, that was really dumb. Why did you do that? Or at night, before I was trying to fall asleep, I would just cry and cry because something in my head was telling me, when you said that today, you were so dumb. When you did that, you were dumb. Everybody thinks that you're so stupid, everything you say is so dumb, you shouldn't talk anymore. Don't even try to talk to people. Everybody hates you anyway. And it was just so degrading all the time. It was so mean to me all the time. But I thought if I would just say the right things, do the right things, act the right way, then I would be okay. But I didn't know that this voice in my head wasn't something that other people didn't have. I thought everybody had this, and it was just so mean to me because I was such a terrible person.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

That brings me to a question, which is you know, I don't know uh specifically the answer for um Mindy and Randy. I think they're probably a little, I think Mindy's son is a little more open with her, but my son will not even acknowledge or talk about. And I wonder so much, what are those voices? And every time I talk to somebody who can talk about it, they're always awful. I mean, are is that the those voices, are they ever nice or it's just always a bad thing?

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Well, I mean, they used to be kind of always a bad thing, but now that like I'm on medicine, but I'm not like, you know, zombie medicine, like I will crack up with the voices. Like it's like I'll remember a scenario that happened, and then we just go through it and I'm laughing hysterically. So, like, yeah, that I do sometimes have a great time, but I'd rather not have them at all.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

So when you started on medicine, did they gradually get to the point where you can laugh with them, or was it more abrupt when you started your medication?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

You know, I'm not sure because actually I there's this story that I have. I was in like 11th grade in physics class, and I was in the back of the classroom, and I was just laughing and laughing and laughing at nothing. And I remember this girl, she turned around, she was just like, Are you okay? And I was like, Oh, yeah. And she's like, What are you laughing at? And I was like, Oh, I don't know, but I was laughing so hysterically that I was had tears in my eyes. So that happened to me in 11th grade before any diagnosis, before any medication.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

My son laughs too. Yeah, he won't ever acknowledge it, but he'll he'll sit and laugh, which actually warms my heart, makes me think maybe it's not always awful. So um, so you got out of college and you entered into your life, and you have a good therapist now or a good doctor who gets your medication right. When and why did you start schizophrenic New York City?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Well, yes. So I moved to New York City and I'm like had my graphic design degree and everything, and I was doing graphic and web design and some coding. And in about five years, I had about like 12 to 15 jobs, and I was fired from every single one of them. I am great at interviewing. I can get a job, I can do design, everything like that. It's just every single other part of a job I can't do. It's the sitting behind the desk for eight hours a day. It's the cognitive skills of my boss telling me something to do and I don't understand it. And it's dealing with all the people, it's the nighttime pill that makes it hard for me to wake up in the morning and be on time. It's like the ADD of just like, I'm trapped here. I'm trapped at this desk all day. Like, that's also one thing that colleges don't prepare you for. You know, you go to college, you go to class, or you'll skip class, or you'll hang out, you go in sweatpants, you know. They don't teach you how to just sit behind a desk for eight hours a day. Because like professors don't have that job. Professors have a great job, you know. They don't teach you that, like, have being a professor is an awesome job. You know, they don't teach you, yeah, you have to dress up. You can't wear your sweatpants and sweatshirts, but you have to dress up and sit behind a desk for eight hours a day, doing the job that we're teaching you how to do as we're chilling because we're professors, because we're awesome. Like, it's not easy to do, like working is not easy, especially when you have schizophrenia. And I remember at one job, I guess I was just like totally dissociated, like talking to people. My boss and another person came over and they were like, Are you on the phone? And I was like, No. And they're like, Who are you talking to? And I was like, Nobody. They're like, Well, it looks like you're talking to somebody. And I was like, Nah, nobody, just nothing. I was just doing nothing. So it's like sometimes things are hard to explain, but like, it's also like just some like if I had to like read a whole list of things I had to do, I would just get really confused on things. I don't know. I don't know exactly why I always screwed up, but I always screwed up and I always got fired for all little different things, but they all kind of measured up for the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

And then I was like, Do people know when you go get your job? Do people know that you have schizophrenia or you don't talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I don't tell them. I took one place I told HR, and it's actually at that place when I was brought into a meeting and he brought up that situation. I just turned to HR and I said, I think what you read in that letter explains that. And she just told him that he had to drop it and he brought it up again, and he just and HR was like, You have to drop it, and with no explanation to him.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Since you're in New York City, yeah. Excuse me. Since you're in New York, New York City, um, I always hear about fountain house, and and one of the things that clubhouses do so well is help people get jobs, but more importantly, after they get them, help them keep them, you know, for all the things that you're talking about. Do you have any, do you ever go to Fountain House or do you know anybody that has been helped with these kinds of employment issues with them?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yes, um, I am a member of Fountain House. I really do like Fountain House. The thing is with fountainhouse jobs, they don't set you up with like if I wanted a graphic design job, they're not gonna like set me up with that job. They set you up with like different jobs, like handing out the mail or like at a place or like delivering like meals on wheels, things like that. And it it you make they only give you jobs that will make you earn like $200 a week, which is not bad, but um, you know, like I because I had so many jobs, I was so well-rounded in graphic and web design in so many different fields. So that's why I was able to build my own website and start my own clothing line because I had so much industry experience.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

So tell us about that. Tell us about what what your intent was with the business.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, I I, you know, looking around New York City, you see homeless people with mental illness all the time. And, you know, there's one in five New Yorkers has a mental health issue. So, like, you know, if it the what's with all the stigma if it's so common. So I wanted to like just start a some sort of awareness. Like I started a clothing line with just like really just bold slogans that would just make people just aware about mental health in in New York City. And you say some of them for our list. Yeah, they're just don't be paranoid, you look great. It's not a delusion, you are incredible, define normal. I'm mentally ill and I don't kill. And it's just to be just bring awareness to mental health in New York City. And I have a pop-up shop, I usually pop up in front of the fountainhouse gallery. I have to talk to them on in a few days just to double make sure on that, whatever. But um, it it's just like when people approach my pop-up shop, it's either they tell me that like they have a mental illness, a friend of theirs has a mental illness, or a family member does. So if it's like, you know, so common. What is with all the stigma? It just doesn't make any sense to me. So it's just about getting people to have that conversation because the more conversations we have about mental health, the less stigma there will be. And I think since I've started my business to now, the conversations have grown exponentially. And it's so much, people are so much more open now than they were when I first started.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I love that that that your um that your slogans have a sense of humor to them. Yes. Because that is to me, you know, I'm I wear many hats, but uh, you know, humor is a huge part of everything that I do. And so to me, when someone can joke kindly and mutually with somebody about something, that is like the ultimate acceptance. So I I I love your slogans. And I just want to throw in that we have done, in case you're listening and you don't know what Fountainhouse is, I encourage you to do a search on our episodes. We did a whole interview uh about clubhouses and specifically Fountainhouse. So I want you to look at that as well. And we will be doing a show at some point. We have not planned it yet, so don't hold me to it, but we do plan a show about employment and whether to disclose or not, because I I totally hear you. My son, I will share that he just lost a job. He has never disclosed. He has never disclosed, and he will get the job when he's stable on medication. And then if during the job he gets unstable on medication or the medication stops working, he can look like you look like you're talking on the phone, he will look spaced out, or he will look like he doesn't care, or he will look like he's unproductive, even though he's trying his best. And so I'm sure disclosing would help him, but he doesn't believe he has schizophrenia. So that is what you know, many without the acceptance slash awareness of it with anasygnosia, which if you don't know what that is, we've done many shows on that as well. It's a medical lack of awareness that you have schizophrenia. So uh I it just brings to mind that we should do a show on disclosure and whether to do it or not. And your story's been really interesting. And I love what you're doing. So, how is the business doing?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Um, it it it's doing it's doing well. I mean, uh everything can always be better, of course. I mean, you know, if anyone listening wants to make make some orders, that'd be great. Schizophrenic.nyc.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Give us the website schizophrenic NYC. Schizophrenic dot nyc.nyc because there's no.com. There's it's okay, got it. Schizophrenic.nyc. And of course, that link will be in the show notes. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

But you know, it's going well. I get good responses. Sometimes I get some weird responses. Some I mean, sometimes people think that I'm making fun of people when I'm not. You never know. You never know who's gonna walk down the street. You never know.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

So do you ever get people who like really take issue with it or are offended by it? Oh, yes, of course. How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Um, you know, sometimes I try to explain what it is, but I usually don't get the chance. I just get yelled at as they walk by. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Do you think that's because you look like you're doing so well? You know, I always think we can joke about mental illness because we're family members, you know, or Jim, my son can joke about mental illness because he has schizophrenia, but um, but we don't expect other people to do that. So maybe they mistake you for a very, very normal person and that, and therefore you don't get the pass that you would if you looked obviously. I I I probably probably.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I mean, whenever like like a therapist or a psychiatrist come by and they're like, Oh, you you have schizophrenia, they're like, What what medication are you on? They always ask me that. That's what I asked you. Yeah, they always ask me that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

It's interesting, Michelle. I don't know what medication you're on, but I Do you know that one of the things I read when my son was first uh diagnosed was Um The Day the Voices Stopped, which is a memoir by a man who has passed since passed away. But he talks about careening from uh successful political PR careers to being homeless on the streets, which will bring us to our next topic in a moment, and back and forth and back and forth. And for him, the medication that works, and that's the thing, to find the medication that works for you. For him, it was closer, which we've talked about before on the show, and we have many episodes, you can check on that. And he depicted in his book, and it just opened my eyes. He said, suddenly the voices stopped. I didn't have the chatter going on. And I know you just said, gee, is this how regular people live? For him, he said, I was lonely.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

And I had to go and hide in my bathroom for three days. I knew it was what I needed to do, but I had to make that transition. And so it opened my eyes as the mother of someone with schizophrenia that when they're your constant companions, it might be difficult to navigate life without somebody to laugh with or someone to tell you it's not your fault. But I'm sure it's great to not hear the bad things. So that was just something that it reminded me of. But when it works, and we all want better medications, but when they're as good as they get, and it begins to give you a life that understanding what you're still dealing with, you're, you know, nobody would say, Oh, what a shame she's lost her life. You're doing great, at least as far as we can see. So, and and I love what you're doing. Um, so thank you. That was just not a question, that was a comment.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

I just wanted to put in um to honor the person who wrote that book. His name is Ken Steele, and he is from New York City, and I do believe he went to Fountainhouse, but he preceded you, Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

I just want to take a quick break now and mention to you another podcast out of Canada called Look Again Mental Illness Reexamined. For instance, this month, January 2023, there's an episode you might be interested in if you want to know more about psychmeds. So it's called PsychMids, the whole story on Look Again. You know, the community of families dealing with serious mental illness is not confined to schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches. When we run across another podcast that we believe in, we want to share it with you. This one comes from Canada and it's called Look Again, Mental Illness Re-examined. If you want to learn more about mental illness and its impacts, but you don't know where to begin or how to continue, take a listen. The title once again is Look Again, Mental Illness Re-examined. It's a podcast that aims to start important conversations around serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia. Follow Phaedra Aldridge, CEO of the BC Schizophrenia Society, as she connects with medical experts, families, and people with lived experience. Listen to season three of Look Again wherever you get your podcasts. So that's Look Again Mental Illness Re-examined from the BC Schizophrenia Society. Now, back to our discussion with Michelle.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Well, now that we touched on homelessness, let's talk about that a bit because we we wanted to ask you about this. Not that you're the spokesperson for everybody in New York City, but we wanted to talk to you, and this specifically relates to New York City, and so we thought it would be interesting. Um, this um this new move that Mayor Adams has done to it's really sort of an edict he put out, or it's not really anything particularly, you know, in in law, but that he's going to start that they're going to start picking up people who are on the street who are obviously have serious mental illness and need medical treatment and get them to hospitals and get them treated. And it's a controversial thing. Um, I know a lot of friends of mine who are people who have mental illnesses themselves do not like it. I know people who do. So what I thought we would do is just off the bat, just tell you really in a line or two where we're each of us are at, and then hear what you think about the whole thing. Okay, my position about it is as a mom, anything that's going to get my kid closer to treatment and the medication he needs is fine with me. And um I'm uh that that my eye is on that ball, and that seems, you know, to me, that's all that counts. And so from my perspective, this is a good step in a decent direction. I know that it has inherent problems, but anything that gets people to treatment, I am pro. So that's my attitude about it. Randy?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Okay, so we we agreed to just do two or three lines about how we feel. So um I will add to that that I spent many years hearing your son can't have treatment, he's not sick enough. When he was wandering the street all night, scaring the neighbors, uh talking to trees, uh, lose gaining and losing seven jobs. This was without medication. Um, things that really put his life in danger and made his family frightened. And I was told constantly, well, he's not sick enough, he's not sick enough. So uh I applaud getting them to treatment without having to witness violence or brandishing a gun or any of the things, you know, definite harm to themselves or others. However, I'm totally aware that the problem is more than just getting them in. The problem is you need to have a space, you need to have a good, we need beds. And then what happens after they're in the hospital? If there's no system to continue treatment, if it's just going to be a revolving door, then all they're getting is a few days off the street and they're kicked out again. So that's my two cents. Mindy.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

So I I my perspective is that the press, and my daughter Michelle, is a journalist. So I normally rave about the press, but my perspective is that the, including the New York Times, you know, the press has been so awful because it's my understanding that Mayor Adams is not, he didn't change, as Mimi said, he changed no laws. He's just trying to not have people just be dangerous to themselves or others, but also use the gravely disabled part of the um of the criteria. So just like Mimi and Randy, as a mother, I like that criteria to be used and to getting help when people's brains are on fire and you know, deteriorating because of their illness is really important to me. When you answer, Michelle, I'd be interested because I actually haven't heard, and maybe I'm just not reading enough. But how many people actually have with all this hoo-haw's going on, you know, how are they actually picking anybody up or not?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Well, actually, I don't even know if they've started this, but my opinion on this whole thing, like, yes, it does sound like a great idea, but actually putting it into practice, it it's not gonna work. Because if you see someone having some sort of psychotic episode and then you you bring a police officer in the mix, that's when usually people get killed. You know, when they say you're having a that's how that's how they had that started the 988 number or things like that. They have to have a social worker come when there's a psychotic thing happening. So why would they put that into the mix? And now instead of that happening, they're putting cops now coming when there's a psychotic episode to then take people, put them into a psych ward, and they're gonna magically help them and then put them where? Like, like I said before, I've been to the psych ward three times, and not one of those times was I diagnosed with schizophrenia and given any medications. So, how come? How is it possible that these people taken off the street unwillingly, right, are gonna be put into a psych ward, get magically fixed, and then put where? I've seen homeless people walking down the street in hospital scrubs many, many times. Because why they were probably unwillingly put into the hospital, were trying to get helped, had no insurance, and then they're like, we don't know what to do with you. Bye. You know what's what's how is this gonna improve anyone? I don't see how this could possibly work. I think Mayor Adams just put this into like the idea of people's heads, like, here, I'm gonna do this, and then he wants rich people to like him because they're like, Oh, we don't like these crazy homeless people, we don't like them. Oh, let me do something to try to make them happy. But this is just gonna lead to death.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

I agree with you, Michelle. I think that's a big component of it. Is that that's what I question about the whole thing. I mean, I support it, but I still think that the the motivation is dubious because I don't think it's really about helping the people. I think there's a huge outcry in New York City right now about all the crime on the subways, and they want to say that it's all mentally ill people. And I think he's pandering. I do. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

There was already a thing that they said they were gonna put social workers in the subways to help with the homeless people and everything. I have not seen one social worker in the subway, and they've been saying this for a year.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

What that is a problem. That's definitely a problem. That's one thing that um that I thought they were going to do from what I read, that it wasn't just all police officers, they were gonna try to embed social workers. And so the devil is always in the details. You know, as a family member, I would not we try to call the police last. You know, we really, really want a crisis team or a social worker or somebody else besides the police. But unfortunately, because we don't um intervene early enough, then if they are dangerous, those people don't come unless there's a police. So it's it's it's a whole problem when we don't have capacity. We don't, I mean, the whole mental health system is so sparse and depleted that it's when you try to, it's like whack-a-mole, you try to fix something, but if all the other things aren't fixed, then um nothing works. So that is a problem.

unknown 33:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Michelle, what is your opinion about involuntary hospitalization in general?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I mean, I think it depends what you what you really did, you know. Do you really deserve to be there? Like, you know, like did you just say something or did you do something? Are you dangerous? Things like that, you know, it's you know, because like I never wanted to go to the hospital when I went. I never liked it, but did I need to go? I mean, I can argue back and forth for a very long time. So, you know, it's kind of things like that. I kind of like, I don't really have the best answer, but like I don't think that just picking up people off the street is really going to help them in any way. And if there's people that are on the fence about just going to the psych ward, maybe they were not gonna have a bed for them. Or if they don't really want to go, but they have to go, the psych ward is then full of homeless, crazy people that aren't even helping themselves. They're never gonna want to go to the psych ward ever again.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

If those are the people who are in the psych ward, they'd rather be on the street in that case. It's it's you know, it's funny. I thought we were all gonna be so far apart on this issue, and I don't think we are. It it's one of these things of putting a band-aid over here, like Mindy said, whack-a-mole. Um, you know, I've been reading about the initiative, and it sounds good on paper, directing police and city medics to be more assertive, getting severely mentally ill people off the streets and subways and into treatment, even if that means involuntary hospitalization of some people who refuse care. And that sounds like a good first step. What I'm not hearing in any of this is what comes after that.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

And if they don't want medication, they did do right. One thing they did do, it which I think is a really good thing. It's a start anyway, is you know, Michelle, you mentioned people get in the hospital and then they're out in a flash. They they added those 50 beds so that could be, I can't remember if it was three months or four months, but there could be long-term help for people that actually do get um evaluated and need the hospital. So I thought that was a start. You have to start.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

When we're sick or we hurt ourselves, we want to get to the hospital. Michelle said nobody wants to go to the psych ward. It's like it's a punishment, it's like it's the last thing you want. And so here you have an illness that needs treatment, and the last thing that people with illness want to do is go there. Is that a correct?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

In my opinion, I know people that have had good experiences. It's not that I was treated badly, it's that I thought it was just the most boring place in the world, and I didn't understand how boring the tears out of me was trying to help me at all.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

I see. Well, um, you know, another thing I wanted to ask you about in this vein is um Harvey Rosenthal, who's the chief chief executive of the New York Association of Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, and he's a big critic of um involuntary confinement. And he says, the mayor talked about, quote, trauma-informed approach, but coercion is in itself traumatic. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

I yeah, coercive, yeah. People are telling you to go when you don't want to go and they're convincing you to go. Yeah, okay, they may they convince you to go, but then you're alone there. You've gone. The people that convinced you to go, there they stayed in their lives doing their thing, but you're now stuck in the psych ward. Okay, I'm now convinced to be here, and now I'm here. What am I doing? What's the next thing? What's the next step?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

So it's what happens after. I mean, I know my son's been hospitalized 10 times and he's had good care there. So it has made a difference for him. It has made a good difference for him, even though he didn't want to go while he was there. It was a good program. And so we have done, and in case you you're new to our podcast, we're in our third season. And in season one, we did a lot of episodes with Lynn Nanos and uh and other ones, you know, about the system and the psychiatric social workers. We have like many other podcasts, our our our sister and brother podcasts who are talking about this. And you have a couple of podcasts, Michelle. I want to hear, I want to hear about those. So, you know, these these issues, we can all learn about it so that we can all work together to fix it. There are many excellent suggestions out there. And I, you know, I think Mayor Adams is trying to make a good suggestion. I don't think it was thoroughly thought out. I think we can all agree on that.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Well, I will just after there's no housing.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

There's no housing.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

There's no housing. And I I just like I said, I went to the psych ward three times. No one diagnosed me with schizophrenia. I just don't see how vi I think it's gonna be people are gonna be violently dragged off the street, put in the psych ward, and I don't I just don't see how there's going to be a magical cure.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I just don't wish there was one.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I just don't see how that's gonna work. I just I can't see how that's going to help. And then like, what if I then I'm like, oh, I need to go to the psych ward, things aren't good, and then either there's no bed or I'm in the psych ward with all of these people that were dragged off the street. Aren't my aren't I gonna be like, why am I here? I don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Do you think that the important missing component is aftercare and housing? Aftercare, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Like, but also what if you have medicine? How do I pay for my medicine?

SPEAKER_02 38:40

There's a lot wrong. If we move on to housing or something, um, I just want to say I actually do support the plan. I know that it's you know, devil's in the details with the implementing, the mental health system is is not anywhere where it should be, but I actually applaud Mayor Adams for trying to do something that I haven't seen very many places. So we're gonna have a program later with a man named Mark Rippe from California who died on the street. And you know, I'm very sympathetic with that viewpoint. I know every state is different, and New York's got better laws probably than California. But for somebody whose family is, you know, he was hit by a truck, had a broken hip, he was blind. I mean, he just kept getting sicker and sicker, and finally he died. So I think that's the kind of person that Mayor Adams' plan is trying to do something about, not people who are healthy, you know, healthy in their illness. And so I just want to insert that. So yeah, I know it's not healthy. I'm very sympathetic with the intent of the plan. And I hope I don't think they're going to be rounding people up because there isn't capacity in the system. And I don't think anybody's even.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I know, but I I I walk around, I I see plenty of homeless people who look like they're they're talking to nobody or they're yelling or something. I and they're still there, probably. Yeah, I mean, and also that a lot of that can just be confused with drug addicts who are on just a drug bench. I know this one woman who just loves to take her dress off and run around Washington Square Park screaming, like that's one they'll round up. But she doesn't look like she has a psychiatric problem. She looks like she's on some really hard drugs.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

It's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

So I Michelle, can you tell us a little more about you and what you're doing? We'd like to hear about your podcast and just like what your plans are because you're so dynamic and it's so impressive. And by the way, I was talking to another mom who's in our group with Dr. Leitman, and Michelle knows Dr. Leitman because she's friends with Daniel, and she said she has a daughter, her daughter's in her early 20s, and she just follows you like madly on social media and everything. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 40:54

That's cool. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

I think it's so great that somebody like you is out there for these younger kids because I mean they get so sick of listening to us.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

So tell me that one.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Because we're old, we've had decades of experience. I'm 22. I was 22 at the time.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

I was 22. I was 22. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

It's all good. You'll get there. Yeah, you'll get there. So, yeah, tell us about you and tell us about your podcast and a little more about schizophrenic.nyc so that and how people can get in touch with you if you want them to. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah. Well, uh, I have a podcast with my friend Gabe Howard. It's called A Bipolar Schizophrenic and a podcast. I'm I'm he's the bipolar, Gabe, and I'm the schizophrenic. And uh we together we have a podcast. Right now it's on hiatus. We kind of just come out with like 10 episodes here, 10 episodes there, and we just kind of just talk about life or different topic from our different, you know, illness point of views, things like that. And also, um, May 13th, I'm have hosting a comedy show called Cracking Up, a crazy night of mental health comedy. And actually, Dan Lateman is one of the comedians who will be there. So you come to New York May 13th, 9 30 p.m. It's 21 plus. Don't worry, you guys you guys can get in. I think you might have to show an ID. You have to show your ID. They won't believe you, I'm sure. And um, it's it's gonna be a night of some crazy mental health fun. And it's because I got a grant from Jansen that they're sponsoring it, so that's really awesome. Um other things I'm doing, uh schizophrenic NYC is is going good. Gonna work on popping up. And uh, my website, schizophrenic NYC. Other things I'm doing is my TikTok, also schizophrenic NYC, and my Instagram, schizophrenic that NYC. Isn't that convenient? That's so convenient and so easy to find. You've got to follow you right now as soon as we most people are like, so how do I spell schizophrenic?

SPEAKER_01 42:46

I love that. I love that you're owning it, that you're owning that phrase because you can, but we can't. You know what I'm saying? So I love that you're owning it. That's um that's a I'm I really would love to bring my son to your comedy night. We'll see how that goes.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

I would love to see it. I follow Daniel Leitman on Instagram and he cracks me up. I laugh.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

He's joking every day. I watch them every day. He's so clever. I'm like, how does he come up with this?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

So let's let our listeners know who this is, Dr. Laitman. I would like, I would like to know that too.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

How does he come up with them?

SPEAKER_01 43:25

So, Daniel, Daniel is the son of Dr. Leitman, who we have interviewed on the show and who is a strong advocate for correctly combining pharmaceuticals. So the side effects are minimized and the good effects are maximized. And quite often that means clauserel combined with the right combination. And his son, Daniel, is a comedian. Is that pretty much sum it up?

SPEAKER_00 43:51

He's a good comedian.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

A good comedian who also has schizophrenia. So we're we're running out of time. I think we uh want to end with one big question. Um actually can I back up? I have two more questions. One is tell us about the support you have in your life besides Fountainhouse, your family, your friends. Is there support around a great you have a great doctor, but is there support around you other than that? Yeah. And they will just ask a summing up question.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah, I I do have support from my partner, from my family, from my friends. I have like tons of support, which I realize that a lot of people don't have. So I realize that I'm actually really lucky. So I mean I call myself like a lucky schizophrenic and people are like, what are you talking about? I'm like, no, trust me, I I am very lucky because if I didn't have all that support, like I I don't know where I would be right now. So I I realize that I'm an extremely lucky lucky person to have that.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Thank you. So I guess the the last thing is just what what's the main thing you'd like people to know? You kind of answered it at the beginning, but now you've told your story and we know more about you. Um any speci like last words anything we didn't ask you that you want us to know about schizophrenia and mental illness in our culture.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Well also I other thing I like to say is that like there there's no worst illness like schizophrenia is not the worst illness. Like it's not the worst diagnosis you can have like there's there's no like you know like like suffering Olympics. Like just because you get a schizophrenia diagnosis you know it's like oh my god I'm schizophrenic like you there's like no there's all a spectrum. So just because you have that schizophrenia diagnosis doesn't mean you're the craziest person. Like you could have no diagnosis and we'd be like way crazier than me you know that's not the worst one.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

It's not I like that there's no there's no mental illness Olympics well I think that's a good a good thought to to end on because I think that a lot of our kids when they get that diagnosis do feel like it's the worst words they've ever heard in their life. And I think more people like you and more people talking about it like we're doing here is going to change that. And I'm so grateful for you for getting out there and kicking ass like you are we appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Thank you. I try try to kick as much ass as possible.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

You're a New Yorker yeah this has been a delight thank you thank you so much Michelle for having me you guys are so great and you're so old and stuff it's true there's truth in comedy comedy is truth but you know what just like what you said about there's no um there's no mental illness Olympics my thing that I always say to people is people say to me you're not old and I'm like old you know what is old a bad thing I'm 67 that's not young you know what you you're still alive exactly not everyone makes it old not everyone makes it you know exactly exactly so it's the same thing we can do we can define ourselves the way that we want to and to me saying I'm old is a compliment I know I have to admit I have to I dye my hair because I'm gray there you go welcome to the club so you are in our club all right this has been episode 59 and we have a lot ahead for you thank you so much for for subscribing and sharing and and Michelle thank you so much for joining us tonight. Thank you for having hey thanks for joining us for this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches with Randy K, Mindy Gryling and Miriam Feldman to get in touch with us or to learn more about our books please visit our websites at MiriamHyfenfeldman dot com, MindyGryling dot com or randyk.com