What Will Happen When We’re Gone? Trusts, Pooled Trusts and More-Ep. 99

What Will Happen When We’re Gone? Trusts, Pooled Trusts and More-Ep. 99

Guest: Megan Brand,  Colorado Fund for People with Disabilities Executive Director

Dani Page, JD (her other episodes with us are Episodes 50 and 70)

In its simplest form, a Trust is a relationship, in which one person holds title to property, subject to an obligation to keep or use the property for the benefit of another..

We ask:

• Can we use Trusts to help our loved ones with SMI - now, and after we are gone?
• Some of the differences between Pooled Trusts and Individual Trusts?
• How to evaluate Pooled Trust Organizations or other Trustees when considering who to name as trustee

• How does the Secure Act impact the ability to provide support through inherited IRA's
• Language in trust documents to cloak our loved ones from creditors getting ahold of trust money needed to support their lives after we are dead.
• What can we set up now so that our loved ones will be okay after we are gone….and not to put a huge burden on their siblings?

Links:

https://www.cfpdtrust.org/

www.cfpdtrust.org

https://nationalplanalliance.org/programs/

https://aptrusts.org/

Elder Law Attorneys:

https://www.naela.org/

Certified Elder Law Attorneys (CELA):

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/senior_lawyers/resources/voice-of-experience/2010-2022/what-cela/

Mindy and her book: https://mindygreiling.com/

Randye and her book: https://www.randyekaye.com/

Miriam and her book: https://www.miriam-feldman.com/

Brilliant Beaver Guidebook - Audio Version
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Join our facebook page
Our websites:
Randye Kaye
Mindy Greiling
Miriam (Mimi) Feldman

Chapters

• 8:25 [Ad] Brilliant Beaver Guidebook - Audio Version
• 9:12 (Cont.) What Will Happen When We’re Gone? Trusts, Pooled Trusts and More-Ep. 99

Transcript

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Randye Kaye: welcome to Episode 99. Many listeners have asked us for this topic.

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Randye Kaye: and we've been planning it for about 2 months. So we're very, very excited to get right into it today. If you're new to the podcast this is schizophrenia, 3 moms in the trenches, always in the trenches. Sometimes we climb up, sometimes we go back in. It's a roller coaster. I'm Randy K. My book has been behind his voices. I'm joined by my co-host, Mindy Greiling, whose book is, Fix what you can. And Miriam

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Randye Kaye: Mimi Feldman, whose book is he? Came in with it. We love our sons, our sons have schizophrenia, and we've turned our

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Randye Kaye: family pain into advocacy, as many of you have as well. So this is the 99th episode and welcome. Like many, many parents, we wonder and try to get in place what's going to happen when we can no longer do for our loved ones what we're currently doing.

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Randye Kaye: And so many people have asked us.

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Randye Kaye: What do you do? So we thought we'd bring out one of our favorite guests. My cousin.

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Randye Kaye: Danny Page, who has an episode 50 and another episode that I will put in the show notes, explained social security. Ssdi, and the application process to us. Still, one of our most watched and listened to episodes.

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Randye Kaye: and I asked Danny what to do, and she said, You've got to bring in Megan Brand. So we're going to talk about

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Randye Kaye: trusts and pooled trusts, and a whole lot more. My knowledge is Spotty and Danny. Why don't you introduce our guest.

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Dani Page: I'm actually gonna let Megan introduce herself. Her background seems credible. And I'm very fortunate to have met her when I was on a year grant with national alliance on mental illness.

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Dani Page: working in the minority communities, and she taught me so much during that time. I'm forever grateful to Megan, but not only as it

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Dani Page: it revolves around dealing with that community, but my own circumstances. So she's truthfully the Guru of Guru. The only reason I ask Randy, if I could take just a minute before we start, is because I think it's really important to get some terms written down so that you can listen to them, but also so that you can take those terms and be a bit knowledgeable about it

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Dani Page: when you go in to see a professional, and if you have listened at all to my podcast. You know I'm not

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Dani Page: how bad I'm telling you again, attorney for everything.

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Dani Page: This is what I'm gonna tell you must, must, must, must get an attorney when you're doing your wills and trusts, and not only somebody who is familiar with wills and trust, but that specifically specializes

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Dani Page: in beneficiaries with disabilities would be our loved ones. Because there are different rules that apply. There's and each state is different. So please do not go online. You'll see all kinds of things through. No Low and Bradford publishing about how you can do your own will for $50.

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Dani Page: That would be a disaster for our our loved ones when we're gone, because I'm telling you what

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Dani Page: what they're trying to do out the goodness of their heart to save money is not going to be beneficial to your loved one. It's going to fall through the cracks. It's a very rocky road that we're walking on, so let me give you just a couple of the terms I think we may talk about. You may hear during this

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Dani Page: send Thrift Trust.

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Dani Page: Sometimes it's called an Asset Protection Trust, and that's protecting our kids.

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Dani Page: Adults. When they make really lousy decisions, whether it's through

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Dani Page: state more stable times or in crisis about contracts and spending money. It's a way to protect the money that's in the trust.

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Dani Page: I also, Megan will talk about Pool trust versus private trust.

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Dani Page: and how you assess

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Dani Page: the

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Dani Page: viability of that potential

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Dani Page: trust and the person who runs it. You need to make sure it's a reputable person. You've probably read some pretty scary things that come out of Florida about people who take away all the money. So Megan's going to hit on that as well. The other thing you need to talk with, probably both the financial advisor and the lawyer, because this piece is changing, flipping forever, and that is the secure act

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Dani Page: which just a few days ago, actually put out this, these new rules

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Dani Page: for those kiddos who inherit Iras from the parents, depending on what your background is. Most of your money may have been funneled into Iras. Even Roth. Iras.

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Dani Page: I can't tell you what it means for our families, except that a kid who is

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Dani Page: defined as disabled under the SSI Ssdi rules will qualify because it is the toughest definition of disability across all spectrums in the law.

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Dani Page: So if you have somebody SSD or SSI, I've not freaked out about it. But I know we our kids. Many of you guys have had your kids stable at times

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Dani Page: where they were able to work and no longer needed SSI or Si Ssdi at the moment.

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Dani Page: I don't know how these rules are going to apply, so please talk to somebody who lives this day in and day out, and does consider the implications of that law that is not defined well, and is continually trying to provide guidance.

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Dani Page: That's all I have to say, Megan. Take it away, my friend.

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Randye Kaye: Okay. Thank you. So the bottom line of that is, you know, after this

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Randye Kaye: podcast episode, you're not going to be an expert. You need to talk to an expert. But you know, like, when we get educated, we'll know how to talk to the expert and what what questions to ask them. And yes, there are 50 States in the United States, and if you're listening in another country, as many people are, it may be different in your country. But we'll thanks to Megan. We'll at least get some

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Randye Kaye: some basics here. I even heard today about a special needs trust, where, if you have savings, you can put it in a special needs trust, and then your loved one can qualify for Medicare, because if you have money saved for them they can't, and not Medicare Medicaid.

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Randye Kaye: because if there's too much money saved for a loved one, then they can't have Medicaid. But I have heard that you can put it in a special needs trust to be used later. So there's a lot of moving parts.

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Randye Kaye: and I'm going to bring in Megan Brand to unravel it. Megan, I'm going to let you tell a bit about your bio, but I will say that Megan is the executive director of the Colorado Fund for people with disabilities. So again, your experience may vary in your state, but this is a place to begin. Welcome, Megan.

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Megan Brand: Thank you so much for having me and thank you for your kind words, Danny. I have been the executive director at Cfpd for oh, gosh! 14 years! But I've been at the organization for 21. So I have really kind of grown up alongside the organization, and one of the things that I would like to highlight is that

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Megan Brand: Cfpd is a nonprofit organization. In order to be approved as a pool trust organization. You do have to be a nonprofit, and I serve on a couple of different national boards.

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Megan Brand: Both the National Plan Alliance, which is actually focused on future planning for people with disabilities and their families, and also the alliance of Pool Trust, and both of those have members across the United States. So. I believe my contact information is going to be included. I am often a resource for people to

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Megan Brand: help them decide who might be in their local community, both attorneys and trust administrators. So I'm happy to answer those questions.

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Megan Brand: one other.

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Randye Kaye: Okay, yes. And and this will will be in the show notes. So but it's national planalliance.org slash programs is just in case you're listening, and you have your pen in your hand. We have ap trust.org. And then Megan's organization, CFPD. trust.org. So those those are the links. They will be in the show notes. Go on.

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Megan Brand: Okay, thank you. Probably a good time to tell you all. I am not an attorney. I like to say a play one on TV, at times like this. But I I can certainly also make recommendations for attorneys in your area, and one of the rules of thumbs that I always give to parents and families is that

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Megan Brand: call several different places and ask for recommendations, and when it lines up that you hear the same name or organization 2 or 3 times. That's probably who you should be calling, because that means they've got a good reputation. They're well known in their community. And I also wanna highlight what Danny said earlier, which is

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Megan Brand: there are a lot of attorneys that focus in in estate planning that does not mean that they know all of the ins and outs specific to trust for people with disabilities. You're probably gonna have better luck looking for an elder law attorney that specializes in that area. And I, you know I would ask them, like, how many special needs trust? Do you write how often do they get approved.

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Megan Brand: approved. You know. What? What does that look like? So that you know that this is not something they do once a year, but maybe once a month.

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Megan Brand: so that's that's something I would recommend. In the beginning there were a a lot of different terms thrown out about different types of trusts. I like to think of it in a couple of different buckets. The 1st bucket is 1st or 3rd party, that's all about where the money comes from. So when you think about 1st party money, that's what you were mentioning earlier, Randy, about. If the individual themselves comes into money.

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Megan Brand: maybe they get an inheritance from their great Aunt Sally that was not put in a in a proper trust, but just given to them out right? Or maybe they got a back payment and social security after they went through that long process that Danny taught you all about, and they got social security back payment. And now that's going to put them over their resource limit. Or maybe they get into

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Megan Brand: to an accident and they get a personal injury settlement. These are all of the ways that are considered first, st party money money belonging to your son or daughter or family member that would otherwise disqualify them for Medicaid and SSI benefits, supplemental security income.

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Randye Kaye: So this is even before we die. This is like.

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Megan Brand: This is anytime.

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Randye Kaye: Any time.

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Megan Brand: By the way, you can have both, you can have both kinds of trusts. We oftentimes have people do. In fact, what what we see sometimes is

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Megan Brand: maybe parents die. They're funding that 3rd party trust. But they forgot one asset. They forgot one life insurance policy or one pension that they didn't know about, or one small piece of property, so somebody might end up needing 2 trusts. The 1st party Trust and the 3rd party trust.

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Mindy Greiling: Could I ask a question.

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Megan Brand: Completely, yes.

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Mindy Greiling: How long have these 1st party trusts been around? And the reason I'm asking because I know about the other kind. In fact, our families had one of those since 2,005. But I, Jim, has had like 2 or 3 times, and I keep hearing lots of people have to do spend downs.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Mindy Greiling: And it sounds like you wouldn't have to do one if you created one of these trusts. So why is it that? No. Are they recent? Or why don't the Case managers and such know about them? They tell the person you have to do a spend down, and Jim is just squandered money, you know, ordering goodness knows what on the Internet, you know, for 5 days before he loses his benefits. But no one mentioned

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Mindy Greiling: these 1st party trusts.

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Megan Brand: Okay? So great question. 1st party trust. There's

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Megan Brand: that's where I'm gonna get into another dissection, which is, they fall into 2 categories, also, pool trusts and individual trust. So you can look at either of those, both individual trusts.

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Megan Brand: or what are sometimes called disability. Trusts

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Megan Brand: and Pool trust were created with the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993.

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Megan Brand: So they have been in existence since 1993,

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Megan Brand: cool like.

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Mindy Greiling: And a pox on the House of People. Not knowing this.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Mindy Greiling: It's after 90, 93 that Jim did 2 or 3 spend downs.

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Megan Brand: Oh, well, I think that because that's because of a few things one would be, you know, education on the part of of pool trust organizations. I think it's lack of knowledge of some of these systems, you know, with the different case managers that you might be working with. There have been times in my career that I have needed to educate people who work for social security and medicine

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Megan Brand: about the type of trust that we administer, so I'm not too surprised to hear that. But it is. It is definitely an option. The other option is an able account, and I hate to get like too far in the weeds, because that's enough. But that is another option for people who were just considered to be found to be disabled before the age of 26.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Mindy Greiling: I will say Jim now has one of those. So that is, we did learn about those not to have to do spend downs ever again. But we but we didn't. There weren't able accounts back when he could have used.

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Megan Brand: Oh, no. Able accounts are definitely more recent. Yes.

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Megan Brand: yes, go ahead, Danny.

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Dani Page: And just so, you know, none of these are mutually exclusive. So, as Megan is saying, you can have 1st party 3rd party able accounts. It's a way of kind of hedging your bets in case something changes in the law, or and I personally think it's a great idea to go after whatever you can. So that's it. Thank you.

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Megan Brand: I. I agree with that. And also we we like to use able accounts as a tool in our toolbox along with trust. And there's there's

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Megan Brand: lots of good reasons for that. They get a little complicated. But so for now I'm gonna go back to the the 1st party. You know. I I think you see all the ways in which that can be used in most states California would be the biggest exception if somebody is on SSI and Medicaid, and I'm talking Medicaid like home and community based services Medicaid or Medicaid

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Megan Brand: link to SSI. The resource limit is $2,000. So anytime somebody has $2,000 like you're saying, Mindy, like they're told to spent down, or they can put money into trust.

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Megan Brand: vent

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Megan Brand: the individual trusts. I'm sorry, the 3.rd But let's talk about 3rd party trusts next. So 3rd party trusts are really money that came from a 3rd party. So anyone but the individual. So it can be parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles. It can be really anyone. It could be friends. I've seen that before that are contributing to a 3rd party trust

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Megan Brand: and

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Megan Brand: the the biggest difference there is that when you're talking about 1st party money.

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Megan Brand: when the individual dies

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Megan Brand: and they still have money left in trust. One of 2 things happens

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Megan Brand: either that money is returned to Medicaid up to the amount that Medicaid has paid on their behalf in their lifetime.

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Megan Brand: or, in the case of the Pool Trust. In some states it is retained by the Pool Trust and kept in their charitable fund. So, for instance, here in Colorado our Pool Trust retains the remainder, and then we use those funds to supplement and support our organization in further service to people with disabilities in our community.

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Randye Kaye: Okay. So now I'm I'm confused.

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Megan Brand: I? I can see why this is where I probably should have had it. Chart.

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Randye Kaye: Right. They.

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Megan Brand: So have.

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Randye Kaye: So so there's a lot going on. Let's let's just see.

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Randye Kaye: Because right now, and we did have an episode, we did have an episode with a Connecticut organization called Plan Plan Plan planned lifetime

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Randye Kaye: and network might.

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Megan Brand: Good good friend Carrie Ted, from Coles.

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Randye Kaye: Okay. So we spoke to Michael Macnyak, who's with Melissa's project over there? And so

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Randye Kaye: I'm a little familiar with it. But right now to me all it means is, this is a plan for my inheritance. If something were to happen to me and my husband. So that's a 3rd party trust. I got that much, but I'm not sure who it's pooled with, and you're saying if my son were to die and there was money left in that trust.

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Megan Brand: That's only for 1st party money.

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Randye Kaye: Okay, only for 1st party.

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Megan Brand: The only time that Medicaid

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Megan Brand: claims the remainder or the Pool Trust organization claims. The remainder is if it's 1st party money.

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Randye Kaye: Okay. So money that came from an inheritance from us. If he were to pass away, then it could go to my daughter, or it could. Whatever I stipulate.

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Megan Brand: Which is why it's really important to have this conversation and meet with your attorney and do your estate plan is because if you, if you just leave the money to your son out right. It's now 1st party money. It's now his money.

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Randye Kaye: O.

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Megan Brand: But if you meet with an attorney and draft a trust and leave the money and trust, then it's 3rd party 1st of all.

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Megan Brand: and Medicaid has no claim on that money, because it was the way I like to think of it is, it was never their money. To begin with. Right you. You took your money, you put it in trust, and you made it available

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Megan Brand: for your son for his lifetime.

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Megan Brand: and then, after he has died, then it passes on to the other beneficiaries that you have chosen.

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Miriam Feldman: Can I ask a question.

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Megan Brand: Yes, of course.

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Miriam Feldman: I have one now I have one

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Miriam Feldman: If there were a situation where you have

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Miriam Feldman: a few sable, a few children, and they're all adults, and one of them

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Miriam Feldman: is an adult person with schizophrenia. And well, I'll just talk in 1st person. So so far as we've gone. Now, we've let my, we just handle everything for my son. He is compliant. We just handle the money he lives off his SSI anything beyond his SSI we take care of, and that's how it stands right now in terms of our future. We created a special needs trust and different things. But I'm wondering to all this.

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Miriam Feldman: If you have siblings, who you 100% trust and know, will take care of your son.

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Miriam Feldman: Would it be a crazy idea to just leave him out of the will and give the money in whatever way that you

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Miriam Feldman: deem best to the other ones, and trust that they'll take care of them, and then he doesn't have to deal with. All of this is, that is, that a crazy.

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Megan Brand: Not a good idea, Mimi. Not a good idea.

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Miriam Feldman: Okay, and what?

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Megan Brand: And let me, let me tell you why.

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Miriam Feldman: Okay.

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Megan Brand: Divorce.

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Megan Brand: death.

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Megan Brand: relationships that are not as great after you're gone.

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Megan Brand: And and also, you know, leaving that question in the minds of your other children. Of how much should we be given giving to him? How much should we be be paying for? So I've seen this happen before, and I can tell you that the siblings who survived are come to us and say, I don't know what to do. Now. I you know I I feel like. I don't know. You know how much of this I should set aside. I don't know what I should be paying

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Megan Brand: for, so I looked at.

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Miriam Feldman: That's a burden on them.

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Megan Brand: It puts more of a burden on them. So, and and also that, you know just to speak a minute about divorce. If one of your other children then gets a divorce. Your son's portion is caught up in the in those assets that get divided.

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Megan Brand: there! There's just a lot of different reasons why I wouldn't recommend that.

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Miriam Feldman: Would be better to structure things so that we don't have to pay back

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Miriam Feldman: is

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Miriam Feldman: SSI. And all of that.

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Megan Brand: You're not gonna have. If you if you structure it correctly in a 3rd party, trust you've done it ahead of time. You know the way that I typically see it is. There's a trust document that says, you know I you said you had 4 children altogether.

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Miriam Feldman: Yeah.

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Megan Brand: Okay. So so let's just say for illustrative purposes. You say you're gonna give 25% to each child.

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Megan Brand: and the 3 children are going to receive their their inheritance outright, and this the son who has a disability, those funds are going to be held in trust for him. So his 25 is gonna remain in trust. And then from there a trustee is going to have the responsibility to sit, you know. Keep those funds for him in that trust, and

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Megan Brand: really pay for the things that you have been paying for him all along. To keep to keep that that standard alive, so to speak.

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Miriam Feldman: As long as the money lasts.

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Megan Brand: Yeah, as long as the money lasts. Right? Yeah. And and that's the other thing that we sometimes see is that parents give and give and give and give. And so there, then there's this expectation, for how much

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Megan Brand: is going to be paid for, but there's no money left, so that's something to think about.

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Randye Kaye: Right? So I you know, that is.

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Randye Kaye: And I know in our case

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Randye Kaye: we have to. We fill out a you know, what's his life like, what does he need money for like we're not, you know. I

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Randye Kaye: back when my son was in a group home and he's in. He's in a

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Randye Kaye: Abe.

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Randye Kaye: let's say an uncertain situation right now. But we you know we're we're hoping that he'll be living on his own, for with some support for a little bit, and so have to continuously update this document. But I remember filling it out going. Please make sure he has a birthday cake on his birthday, like, you know, it's heartbreaking the things that you that you fill out. But I always think

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Randye Kaye: I don't want my children have a great relationship with each other, and I don't want my daughter to be burdened with having to dole out the money I just I want. I want her to be free to be his sister. And so that's why I'd rather put that on on a trustee. But I think, after having this podcast episode, I'm gonna have to just make sure everything's in place, because I you know, you should name another representative payee. I guess

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Randye Kaye: if you pass away, if you're the representative pay for Ssdi.

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Randye Kaye: Right social security.

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Megan Brand: Hey!

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Randye Kaye: And he.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Megan Brand: I would recommend that you're looking at your estate plan, probably every 5 years, and having that meeting to check in with your attorney to make sure that it still has everything. So a great example of that would be the able accounts that we talked about.

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Megan Brand: A lot of trusts now have a provision that says that you can make a distribution from the trust to enable account if the person qualifies, so that might be an addition that you might want to make in your estate. Plan.

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Randye Kaye: What exactly is an able account is a BLE, like.

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Megan Brand: A, BLE.

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Randye Kaye: Okay.

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Megan Brand: So able stands for a better life experience, and it really was meant to be a savings account for people with disabilities who were determined to be disabled before the age of 26, that allowed them to set aside either some of their money or money from others. So this gets really confusing because it could be 1st smart party and 3rd party money.

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Megan Brand: and it is capped. The amount that you can contribute to an able account every year is capped. So getting to what Danny was saying before, these are not mutually exclusive, you would not want to just say, Oh, we're just going to fund an able account, because

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Megan Brand: the the Ca contribution limit this year, I think, is $18,000, so you wouldn't want to be limited to only contribute $18,000. But you can have some of the money. Go from the trust to the able account. The able account has a lot more freedom, and it also. Ha! Then comes with a lot more

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Megan Brand: risk, I think. Because the individual has really, unless there is a power of attorney or a guardianship over the account. They own the account, and they have full autonomy over it.

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Randye Kaye: So if they wanted to buy a used car or something like that, money could even now be transferred over to that account, and it wouldn't count for the $2,000 limit, or whatever.

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Megan Brand: That just clarifies.

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Randye Kaye: For Medicaid, and this is in every state, as far as you know.

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Megan Brand: As far as I know, it is in every State that is correct.

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Mindy Greiling: Here's oh! Go ahead!

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Megan Brand: I was, gonna say, and they there was a a law that was passed recently that's going to increase the age so that you can be determined, eligible. I'm sorry, determined, disabled before the age of 46. Now, that doesn't go into effect, I think, until 2026. But don't quote me on that.

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Mindy Greiling: They passed that law because it's before it was discriminatory against females, because many women don't get schizophrenia until the late twenties or early thirties, like my grandmother got schizophrenia in the early thirties so they wouldn't qualify, so I don't know about 46. I guess that's covers everybody then

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Mindy Greiling: but the age 26, I thought, was too small. Jim has had an able account for quite a while, and he just uses it for the money he earns from his part-time job and puts his money in there, and it makes him feel really self-sufficient and autonomous to be in charge of that money. But it's my understanding. Here's my question, then aren't able accounts, just like

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Mindy Greiling: 1st party accounts, in the sense that if you leave something in there and then you die that goes back to the government. Am I right about that?

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Megan Brand: In most states. You're right about that. So, for instance, here in Colorado, they just change the law so that Medicaid cannot be a creditor on those accounts.

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Mindy Greiling: Interesting.

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Megan Brand: However, however.

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Megan Brand: they can still be a creditor on the estate, and so I don't know that it's much different, right? It's going to pass to the estate. The only exception to that is, if you have multiple children who qualify. So if your son had a sibling who also had a disability the able account could roll over to another able account of a sibling

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Megan Brand: but for the most part you're absolutely right. Medicaid can claim those funds, and because

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Megan Brand: 3rd parties can contribute to them as well. It's not just, you know, in your case your son is using it for his savings. But let's say you were contributing to that fund.

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Megan Brand: Those funds are also can be clawed back by Medicaid, and that's something that that parents don't always realize.

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Randye Kaye: Okay. So what we've learned so far

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Randye Kaye: is that able account is something Randy has never heard of and is going to check on so while we're here, and our loved ones are alive, and everyone's alive and able accounts is a good thing. We should definitely speak to an attorney, preferably maybe, an elder attorney, but it has to be someone who knows what they're doing, so that even the money before something, you know, before we're gone to the next plane.

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Randye Kaye: so that the money is well handled. So the I got the lesson, you know. Update your estate every 5 years, but also speak to an expert and see if your loved one's money

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Randye Kaye: can go into enable account. Now, I don't really understand what a pool trust is. I just have one so like setting things up for after we're gone, can you give me a basic.

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Megan Brand: Sure.

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Randye Kaye: You know what a pool trust versus a private trust? We wanna talk about the secure act. Right? So. Yeah.

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Megan Brand: On all of that. So.

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Randye Kaye: Right.

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Megan Brand: The the biggest. I like to think of pool trust as a 4 like a 4 0. 1 K plan where multiple people are investing their funds collectively.

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Megan Brand: that that's really the best comparison, I think. And so really, what it means is, if I transfer money into the Pool trust.

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Megan Brand: I then have a sub-account of the Pool Trust. I can only access the amount that I have contributed to that pool trust. So once I'm part of the pool.

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Megan Brand: My money is accounted for separately as a sub-account, and and we keep track of all of the coming. You know all the money that comes in all the money that goes out. But but as far as how it's invested, it's invested as a pool or as a group.

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Megan Brand: That really the biggest benefit is that well, there's 2 2 big benefits. One is that it's a Master Trust document. So that Master Trust Document has already been written. It's been written by an attorney. It's been approved by social security and Medicaid as an exempt resource.

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Megan Brand: So you know that going in my this trust has already been approved.

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Megan Brand: The other thing is that the fees are typically lower, because those funds are invested collectively.

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Megan Brand: So so that's another advantage.

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Megan Brand: The other advantage in in in most, you know, situations and most states. And and we're gonna get to a little bit about, how do you select a good trustee. Is that Pool trust organizations. All they do is manage trust for people with disabilities.

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Megan Brand: Maybe maybe they will have some ancillary services like serving as an organizational representative payee or acting as a guardian or a conservator. But everyone they serve is an older adult or a person with a disability.

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Megan Brand: and the difference, you know, with a bank trustee or a fiduciary company, that that that does trusty services is that they're managing trust for all types of situations. They're they're managing trust for people who have lots and lots of family money. They're managing trust, maybe for minors. Whereas in our case

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Megan Brand: these trust organizations are only administering for people with disabilities. So it's very common for us to serve people with chronic and persistent mental illness. For instance, you know, we're used to getting

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Megan Brand: 5 or 6 calls a day from the same individual. Sometimes. We're used to needing to repeat things. We're used to needing to provide things both in writing and over the phone, and maybe in in person, too. You know it. It. We tailor our services to the individual.

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Megan Brand: So that's and, by the way.

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Megan Brand: organize Pool Trust organizations like Cfpd also admin, many of us also administer individual trusts. So even if you decide, okay, putting the money in the pool is not the best option that they might still be an option to service, trustee

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Megan Brand: for for your loved one.

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Randye Kaye: Would that be something that would be

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Randye Kaye: more expensive per hour? I mean, you charge for services, and again, you you can't speak for everybody, but.

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Megan Brand: Right, right.

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Randye Kaye: So I hear, you know, when you hear about

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Randye Kaye: scams or expensive ways, to lose all your money very quickly. You hear about trustees charging $200 an hour for their services. And so is there a difference in what a trustee charges in an individual trust versus a pooled trust? Or is it just vary from agency to agency or.

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Megan Brand: Yeah, that's that's a great question. I think that you know, that's where you really have to do a lot of research and due diligence in the beginning and ask about, how are you charging? What are you charging for? Our organization, for instance? For let's talk about our pool trust. 1st

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Megan Brand: we serve. We charge as trustee for the assets under management that the assets we're managing. It's a it's based on a on a percentage that's very standard in in, in all trust services.

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Megan Brand: We also provide case management. And so if we are doing something that is outside of our trustee duty.

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Megan Brand: but is case management. A great example of that would be to

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Megan Brand: fill out and complete the Medicaid redetermination paperwork that happens, you know, every year every 2 years. That is not a trustee duty, but that is definitely a case, management, duty, and something that our staff are skilled at doing.

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Megan Brand: There are also things that are just above and beyond what typical trust administration is by nature of serving people with disabilities. That that we may need to bill for an example of that is, we're helping a beneficiary right now, who needs to get into detox and drug rehab? Our case manager has called no fewer than

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Megan Brand: 25 different centers to try to find a place that will accept him because he also uses a wheelchair. And so you know that to me is case management. That is again. It's a trust distribution. But that's way above and beyond what a typical trust would be.

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Megan Brand: So I think, just as you're interviewing trustees to ask all of those questions, you know. What do you, Bill? For? How do you, Bill?

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Megan Brand: one of the things I've noticed about reviewing a lot of pool trust organizations. Fee schedules is that they have minimums and maximums that are very different than banks. So, for instance, our minimum fee is a hundred $50 a year. You're not gonna find that with with a bank institution, typically, you're looking at 2,500 to 3,000 as a minimum.

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Megan Brand: So that's an example.

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Randye Kaye: Wow!

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Megan Brand: We also have an upper fee, you know a maximum fee. So as your assets grow, we're not gonna ever charge more than this amount? So that's that's something to look at as you're considering.

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Megan Brand: And then, as we look at back to the difference with an individual trust, why, you might want an individual trust. The reason for that is, there's there's a lot of good reasons.

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Megan Brand: there, you're hiring an attorney. You have an individual trust document that is, that is governing that your actions.

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Randye Kaye: So private trust and individual trust, same thing.

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Megan Brand: Same thing. Yes, and in that case, you know, that might be really good. If you have mineral rights that are that have been inherited, you know, through the family or

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Megan Brand: oil royalties, or you have a ho! A home.

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Randye Kaye: We're laughing over here. We're.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Randye Kaye: As I go.

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Megan Brand: Colorado, you know. You gotta read my bribe from Colorado. The the other thing would be a home, and this is what we see most frequently is that people want to leave a home, maybe their son or daughter's already living in it, but they want the trust to manage it. They want the trust to own it and the trust to manage it. And so you can't

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Megan Brand: I? I have yet to meet a Pool Trust administrator that will accept real property like a home into the Pool Trust. So that would be a reason why you would want to work, you know, have an individual or private trust.

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Randye Kaye: So that's.

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Mindy Greiling: I ask?

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Randye Kaye: That's not the same thing as you know you have a home, you you! You've told your relatives they can sell it and split the money you you're talking about your loved one living in your home and having it be managed. That's best for an individual. Okay, thank you, Mindy.

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Mindy Greiling: So. So we set up our trust like I said,

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Mindy Greiling: 20 years ago, in the year 2025, we got the person from. He did a workshop at Nami, Minnesota's annual conference, and so we worked with him. We didn't know about Pool Trust, but we did an individual trust, and we do have in there about our house.

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Mindy Greiling: That's not anything we're interested in anymore. That's that was a pie in the sky. Thought 20 years ago. Is there any advantage to switching? If you have an individual trust

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Mindy Greiling: to a pulled trust, or would you just leave it alone.

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Megan Brand: I think it depends on your assets. And and what you think you're going to be funding the trust with, and what the you know what the assets are going to to look like? I would recommend that you talk to the you know, the to start with the Pool Trust organization and say, Hey, you know this is what we think will likely fund the trust with what would you recommend

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Megan Brand: and and see? You know what their reasoning is for that what the fee differences look like, what the different considerations are.

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Megan Brand: for you know.

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Mindy Greiling: We actually left in our ours. Our daughter, you know I know that's not recommended, but we trust our daughter implicitly. So we made her the trustee, and then if she's not available, then then the way it was set up, Nami Minnesota helps to find a trustee.

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Megan Brand: Sure.

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Megan Brand: Yeah, and we can chat chat later, Mindy. I have a recommendation for you of of a trustee in Minnesota, too.

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Mindy Greiling: Saw Lutheran social service.

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Megan Brand: Yeah, it's listed.

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Mindy Greiling: One of your one of your links that you sent earlier.

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Megan Brand: Yes, I know. I know the folks there. Well, so good people, and

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Megan Brand: you brought up something that I was going to touch on.

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Megan Brand: which was, I'm trying to think that I lost my train of thought. I apologize.

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Randye Kaye: It'll come it, it'll come back to you. So we have about 15 min left, so I know there's a a lot to cover and

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Randye Kaye: I I think we haven't spoken about the secure act and how it impacts the ability to provide support through inherited Iras, and just to acknowledge that

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Randye Kaye: after you talk about that.

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Randye Kaye: maybe we can bring it back. And you can say what if

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Randye Kaye: you know we're we're lucky. We own homes. We can create a trust.

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Randye Kaye: What happens to someone

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Randye Kaye: that there is the if there is no trust, what would happen to our loved ones? And then.

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Randye Kaye: when we have about 5 min left. Say.

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Randye Kaye: Okay.

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Randye Kaye: step one step, 2, step 3, step 4, step 5 that our listeners should do. If they've done nothing so far because they think they're never going to die. Which is the way many of us are. So number one. Talk about the secure act. If you would.

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Megan Brand: Okay, so I am not a tax professional. I'll just start by saying that. But I have been to a number I appro. I have been in the audience for a number of presentations on Secure act, and the biggest takeaway is that, you know, with secure 2, it requires that you stretch out the distributions for 10 years.

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Megan Brand: However, if you have a beneficiary who has a disability and qualifies under those rules of this which are going to be a little bit different, you know, than social security and Medicaid. Then there's no you don't have to stretch so it can be available for the individual's lifetime.

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Megan Brand: So that really is the biggest advantage of inherited Iras and our organization, with with the help of an assistance of our investment manager is able to administer inherited Iras, both at in our individual or private trust and in our pool trust. So that that's really has been beneficial.

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Megan Brand: And then, you know, the other thing is is that as you're looking at that

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Megan Brand: if there's money left over in, you know, at the time of the individual's death.

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Megan Brand: you can name a nonprofit organization or a charity as the remainder beneficiary of inherited Iras. So that's something to consider as well.

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Megan Brand: Aye, and then

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Megan Brand: in talking about people with no trusts or not having the resources. I think that we haven't talked a lot about a 3rd party Pool Trust, but that is an option as well. Many of us have many organizations like mine have 3rd party pool trusts, and the pool trusts are best for people who don't have a lot of money.

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Megan Brand: and I think that you know when I have talked with parents in the past, they said, Look, if all you can do is contribute to a life insurance policy that you know a a few dollars a month that's gonna pay out at your death.

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Megan Brand: Be sure that you name the beneficiary to go to the 3rd Party Pool Trust and do that work ahead of time. Or if you have a home, and that's your only asset, and it's going to be sold and divided amongst your children. Maybe that's going to be 50, 60, $70,000 that can be put into that 3rd party Pool Trust. So I think that those you know that that's really, you know, the

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Megan Brand: the most helpful and then, of course, there's the non economic supports. That I I know you all know better than than me about, you know.

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Megan Brand: putting natural supports in place as much as you can, creating that circle of support around around your loved ones, so that when you aren't here, because none of us are going to live forever. But there are those other individuals, and I remembered what I was going to say. You said it would come back to me. There are a lot of different roles that your children can play in trust administration.

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Megan Brand: They don't. They can be the trustee. And I agree with you there. There are. I know, that there are some of my children who I would

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Megan Brand: definitely trust to service trustee. Right? So there are those there are those people. They can also serve in another way with the trust which would be as a trust advisor or trust protector. And that might be a really great way to incorporate them.

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Megan Brand: That's a really great conversation to have with your attorney, because every attorney has a different style and a different way of handling that. But

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Megan Brand: for instance, they might have the role of advising the trustee on appropriate distributions from the trust, like, I know that when Mom and Dad were alive they especially wanted to make sure that this, you know, annual trip with the family happened, or I have one family that says, you know, we've got to go to opening season of the or the

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Megan Brand: what's it called for the for baseball, you know. So there's like something for every family.

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Mindy Greiling: Don't ask me.

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Megan Brand: Yeah.

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Randye Kaye: Came with the bat and the little ball. Okay.

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Megan Brand: Right? Right? Right? Or the the trust protectors role might be just to receive an annual statement.

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Megan Brand: Make sure that there's nothing happening here make sure that they're they can see the assets are all there. There's no wild spending or wild fees being charged, and then they have the right to. They have the ability to either

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Megan Brand: fire or and then hire a new trustee. So that might be another role that that a a family member plays. So there's a few different ways that you can incorporate family members to serve without giving them all of the responsibility.

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Megan Brand: And then, you know the other thing that our organization does. And I think some organization I like to call them our sister organizations. We're almost all female female led so that's appropriate. Is that we? We can also provide some hourly support to family trustees. So we do that for a handful of people where they've got a family member who's serving as trustees.

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Megan Brand: or they've got a bank who's serving as trustee, and we work with them and advise them on appropriate ways to use or not use the trust. Or maybe we just help with the Medicaid redetermination paperwork every year, or you know the Ha. Helping them find a new place to live because something happens with the old place. So that's another way that you might.

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Megan Brand: you know, seek out some assistance, or encourage your your other children to seek out assistance in the future.

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Megan Brand: This but.

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Mindy Greiling: That brings up a big question that I have, and that is what happens if somebody uses the trust money for a purpose that isn't listed in the trust. Is there a trust police, or how does that work.

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Megan Brand: That's a great question, and and that is something that has been in the news lately. There are some bad actors, unfortunately, and are there, trustee police? That's a great question. There's a lot of different entities that have some type of of eyes looking in on the Trust, but it's not consistent state to state

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Megan Brand: So

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Megan Brand: medicaid is one.

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Megan Brand: Social security is one, because they're going to be asking if they know somebody has a trust. They're going to be asking for those annual accounting statements to make sure that the distributions that were made are still keeping the person eligible for those Medicaid and social security benefits. So so that's 1

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Megan Brand: they're

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Megan Brand: I can't at.

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Megan Brand: Well, Connecticut actually is overseen by the banking administration. So they are under the the, you know. They are regulated, so to speak. But that's the only state that I can think of that is regulated by the banking administration as a trust organization.

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Megan Brand: But there are. That doesn't mean you. There's nothing you can do.

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Megan Brand: Certainly, you know. You want those eyes looking at those trust statements and and finding problems as they as they might occur. The an attorney can file a motion in court, and you know there's there's a breach of fiduciary duty. The trustee can be sanctioned. The trustee could be fired.

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Megan Brand: there! There's a number of you know

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Megan Brand: consequences if you will, for for that actor

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Megan Brand: trustees.

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Randye Kaye: Mimi any any question before I ask for a step by step recap.

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Randye Kaye: You're muted

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Randye Kaye: still muted.

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Randye Kaye: Oh, she doesn't have. She doesn't have anything no more. Okay.

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Megan Brand: Okay.

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Randye Kaye: Alright. So wow, this is so helpful and so much.

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Randye Kaye: And you know, we

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Randye Kaye: we try to be aware on this podcast that we're 3 middle class white women who can talk about trusts

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Randye Kaye: and that.

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Randye Kaye: And you know

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Randye Kaye: there are families. There's nothing to do with being white. It just has to do with with means, with means. So

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Randye Kaye: what happens

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Randye Kaye: to our loved one, to the loved one, if there is no like. So let's say someone's on disability, and their family goes away. What would happen to somebody if there was no trust money? They just

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Randye Kaye: of people don't have a will. I mean, that's a big question, I know. So you know, we definitely, you want to have a will. You want to talk to an attorney?

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Randye Kaye: But what would happen to to someone. If the family is gone, they just ward of the State, no matter what age they are, or that'd be a question more for Danny. I guess I don't know.

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Megan Brand: It wouldn't necessarily be awarded the State, because that would mean they would be, you know, under guardianship, and that's only going to happen in in if there's really need for that. But, Danny, go ahead.

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Dani Page: Don't have an answer for you actually, except for the community boards in each community where you can get housing.

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Dani Page: I really don't know.

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Dani Page: although those waitlists are forever.

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Megan Brand: Yeah. But

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Megan Brand: really, that's going to be a very state by state specific thing. You know what services and supports are available to people.

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Megan Brand: Medicaid is going to be the best, as far as the most comprehensive, to pay, not only for care, or for you know, medication, and and that type of of treatment, but also through waiver programs for home and community based services to pay for housing for a number of people. So you know, group home settings.

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Megan Brand: in here in Colorado. For people within intellectual developmental disabilities, we have the host home model. There is. There's independent living. That might have some services and supports of people coming in. And then there's as people age assisted living and in nursing facilities.

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Randye Kaye: So, at the very least, we want to get case management in place for our loved ones, even.

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Megan Brand: Dance.

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Randye Kaye: No money to leave them. So that's like the bare bones. What families can do is make sure that our loved ones have case management.

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Megan Brand: And and Medicaid services.

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Randye Kaye: And Medication.

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Megan Brand: That Medicaid application and and supports. Because, you know, I think that's also, you know, parents

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Megan Brand: believe that they're going to be around forever and can. Ca can care forever, and they're not. And so, having as many of those supports in place before is gonna be better, even as as there's a. So there's somewhat of a transition of getting used to other people caring for that, you know, and being involved. Oftentimes people, parents will get us involved

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Megan Brand: while they're still alive as trustee, so that we can take over some of the payment of the cable bill. And you know that we're the ones that get the call that that a dental services needed so that we can start to pay for that. So that's another way that you might kind of transition into. This is and that's another great tool for the 3rd party. Pool trust is to contribute some money every year.

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Megan Brand: So we have some parents that might contribute $1015,000 per year to the 3rd Party Pool Trust, and then they start to work with their son or daughter to come to us to make requests, and we make the distribution. So that that's happening more gradually and not just all at once. At the time of their death.

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Randye Kaye: Okay, and.

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Mindy Greiling: You know, not have limited income. One thing I wanted to insert here is that anyone who wants to start an able account

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Mindy Greiling: I think most people could do that themselves. And you don't need an attorney for that. Jim and I just together went online. And it was a very straightforward follow the.

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Megan Brand: Yes.

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Mindy Greiling: Umps on on the computer.

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Megan Brand: Yes, I agree that they're very easy to set up, and and and another way of really creating some autonomy

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Megan Brand: and and and independence.

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Randye Kaye: I love that I've learned something. So if we were to

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Randye Kaye: put this in a step-by-step for someone who's just thinking about this for the 1st time.

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Randye Kaye: The 1st thing I'm gonna do is ask about an able account, because I never knew about that before. And

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Randye Kaye: so what would be

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Randye Kaye: the the 1st thing a family should do, like research. Go to the website and research pool, trust things in their state. What would the can you give me a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

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Megan Brand: Yeah, I I would. Actually, I think that most people start with an attorney. And I, I really those could happen simultaneously where you're looking at trustees, and you're looking for attorneys. I don't think that that one of them has to come 1st or or or not, but the Pool trust organization might have recommendations for attorneys, and then attorneys might have recommendations for trustees. So you know, you could

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Megan Brand: be doing both of those at the same time, and then

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Megan Brand: I would. I would definitely encourage, you know the next step to be would be to interview trustees. If you're not going to utilize a family Member Trustee, I would recommend starting. I'm a bit biased. But starting with the Pool Trust organization, those 2 resources that I mentioned at the beginning both have, you know.

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Megan Brand: state by state, you know, directories, if you will, of of organizations and start start talking to them. It's important that you ask a lot of questions at the trustee. I'm always most impressed by parents who come in with a lot of questions. So you know. Talk about how long have you been in business? How many trust you administer? What's what are your assets under management?

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Megan Brand: How is my son or daughter going to access their trust fund. Who's gonna be their main contact? Are they gonna call a 1 800 number? Or are they gonna have a person that they can talk to? What is your fee?

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Megan Brand: How do you charge it? How often do you charge it? What is tax? What does taxes look like? Who do you work with to get taxes completed. And and then who gets who approves the distributions? I think this is really critical, because if you're working with a bank that has to go to a bank trust committee, and they only meet once a month. That's gonna be a problem.

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Megan Brand: So you know, you wanna find a trusty, that's flexible and is making those decisions on a on a regular basis. And that's also like

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Megan Brand: the biggest question, I think, is, what's your experience in working with people, with disabilities. What's your experience in working with people who are on Medicaid and social security benefits? Because not only do you have all the responsibilities of a trustee. But you have to be able to administer these trusts to keep them eligible for those benefits. You know that that's really key. So ask all those questions, and then,

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Megan Brand: you know, when you're talking with your attorney, think it's really important that you're you know, thinking about all of these contingencies, you know, and one of the things that I didn't mention before is.

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Megan Brand: any of your children may have a disability that requires them to have a special needs trust. By the time you die

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Megan Brand: you know your son or daughter, who who is typical, may get in a car accident tomorrow, and now have quadriplegia. So be sure that your document allows for that, and it's flexible enough that it really establishes a trust for anyone who requires it.

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Megan Brand: And then the other thing that I think sometimes is missed is to make sure that you're identifying all of your assets and naming them correctly, so that they're all pouring into the trust at the time of your death, so that you don't have these, you know. Oh, we forgot about this life insurance policy out here, or we forgot about that. You know the the

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Megan Brand: plot of lands with the cabin we use every 5 years. Yeah, I'm just thinking of things that have come up over the years. So think about all of that. So, and then it might be that you go to the attorney, and then you go to the trustee, and then you go back to the attorney, and then you go back to the potential trustee like, that's okay to have some back and forth.

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Megan Brand: And the other thing we didn't talk about I know we're getting close on. Time is to is to consider writing a Grantor's letter of intent to really outline. Separate from your trust document

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Megan Brand: all the ways in which you want this trust to be used. And and and if there's any limitations on it for for how it's to be used.

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Megan Brand: and then.

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Randye Kaye: That's separate from the questionnaire that the that the trustee would send you? Or is that kind of.

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Megan Brand: That's the same. Yeah, that's typically the same. If if I'm thinking of it in in the right way, every every trustee is gonna have a little bit different process.

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Randye Kaye: Right.

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Randye Kaye: And of course.

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Megan Brand: To talk with the tax professional as well. Make sure you have all of that in line, especially.

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Randye Kaye: Make sure that your will reflects this trust right.

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Megan Brand: Oh, absolutely, absolutely! And then.

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Mindy Greiling: No, that's why we did. That's why we did our trust for Jim so long ago. Because my mother wasn't in good health. It turned out. She lived longer than we thought, but but we needed her will to have Jim's trust name in it and not give him the money, and then we'd have this horrible spend down because we didn't know

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Mindy Greiling: about these 1st person trust. So that's why we did it.

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Mindy Greiling: And then so then, after. So now everybody has who might want to give anything to Jim. They have the Gryling family trust.

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Megan Brand: Yes, yes, that's a very good point that that you wanna be sure whenever you can, that people are contributing to the same trust. We've also had, you know, divorce parents who come together to contribute to the same trust. Now that that gets complicated when there are second marriages, and then the remainder. Beneficiaries are different. And you know, then you might end up with 2 trusts. But for

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Megan Brand: you know, try whenever you can, to have yeah grandparents and parents contributing to the same trust. That's gonna be.

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Randye Kaye: I am in awe of your knowledge.

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Megan Brand: Oh, thank you!

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Randye Kaye: Oh, I am in awe of attorneys. I am in awe, just like my brain hurts. But this is so so helpful. The website people can go to

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Randye Kaye: attorney we can't necessarily help you with. But the website to find something in their state. We said it at the beginning, which we, the website. Can you say it again? Is it.

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Megan Brand: National planalliance.org.

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Megan Brand: And and, by the way, to find an attorney I would recommend I didn't put them in the notes, but I would recommend 2 different places. One is the National Academy of Elder Law attorneys, and they have a search by State.

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Megan Brand: and the other is Sela, which is certified elder law attorneys, and they also have a search by State.

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Megan Brand: So I would recommend both of those spots. I would say that cela is the more elite because they have additional certification that they have to go through to be considered a sela

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Megan Brand: whereas Nila is going to be more broad

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Megan Brand: but there are some states that don't have any cela attorneys. So keep that in mind, you know, especially smaller states.

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Randye Kaye: Wow! This has been amazing. We're we're over an hour. So I, we'd love to invite you back for Season 4. Because I'm sure that our listeners are going to have more questions.

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Megan Brand: Lots of questions.

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Randye Kaye: But have you? Was there anything else you were burning burning to say that you hadn't had a chance to say.

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Megan Brand: Boy, I don't think so. I'm sorry that I went so long.

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Randye Kaye: No, no, this is this is.

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Dani Page: So this.

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Randye Kaye: Is fantastic. Now we listen. The beauty of a podcast.

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Megan Brand: Yes.

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Randye Kaye: Have to stop for commercial breaks or.

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Megan Brand: Thank you. We.

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Randye Kaye: You can do an hour long. No, I mean that this is such an important

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Randye Kaye: So if someone's in Colorado and they want to get in touch with you. It is Cfpdr trust.org, and.

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Megan Brand: Yes.

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Randye Kaye: Is Megan Brand, but they can just go to the website and contact you. And

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Randye Kaye: any last minute last words from anybody.

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Mindy Greiling: Thank you very much. Now I have a to do list here. Darn it.

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Megan Brand: Very good. You're welcome. It was so good to meet you all. I'm so glad you're doing this podcast and educating families. It's wonderful.