What About the Kids?: When Your Parent has Schizophrenia (Ep. 117)

Guests: Natasha Williams and Liz  Sjaastad

Natasha Williams  -The Parts of Him I Kept: The Gifts of My Father's Madness  (Natasha’s book) is an intimate account of a daughter’s coming of age in the face of her father’s schizophrenic unraveling. Williams investigates the limits of our medical and cultural understanding of schizophrenia while chronicling the shared burden and benefits of caring for a mentally ill family member.

Liz Sjaastad - Liz has written a memoir, You’re Too Young to Understand, about growing up with, and then caring for, her father – a quiet Russian immigrant, an intellectual who drank too much and her mother – a smart and proper beauty who suffered with the life-altering brain illness of schizophrenia, though she never acknowledged it. 

We ask: 

If you could give one piece of advice to a child with parents like yours, what would it be?

When did you begin to understand?

Did your family life affect your siblings differently? If so, how?

Have you forgiven your parents and if so when and how?

When did you think your children were old enough to understand? How did you talk with them?

Have you stopped fearing for yourself getting a serious mental illness? Your children?

LINKS:

Liz Sjaastad

lsjaastad@comcast.net

www.lizsjaastad.com

Facebook

Instagram

NatashaWilliams:

https://www.natashawilliamswriter.com/

Thanks for liking and sharing the podcast! 

Mindy and her book: https://mindygreiling.com/

Randye and her book: https://randyekaye.com/

Miriam and her book: https://www.miriam-feldman.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

You know, the universal quest that I think Natasha and I were on in our books, even though we have a little bit of a different flair to our quest, of understanding, you know, finding the humanity in our parents. I feel like I had to unravel some things to get there. But that that's certainly how I arrived at love and forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

You know, so for me, I was finding adults whenever I could who seemed stable and trustworthy and loving, and I was drawing them in to be, yeah, to take care of me.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

In this episode of Three Moms in the Trenches, we turn the tables and ask, what about the kids? What happens when your parent has schizophrenia? Our guests have each written a memoir about the experience and have a lot to say. Join us as we speak with Natasha Williams and Liz Schosta. Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia: Three Moms in the Trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feltman, Mindy Greiling, and Randy Kaye. Well, welcome to episode 117 of Schizophrenia, Three Moms in the Trenches. We are so excited tonight because many of our listeners have said, Yeah, your moms, you talk about the mom experience. Every once in a while, we want to do an episode to talk about other family members, siblings, spouses. And today it's what about the kids? When your parent has schizophrenia. And we're so delighted to bring together two wonderful writers who have written memoirs about their experience growing up with parents, one of whom has schizophrenia. And having looked at the book, the other parent, not so stable either, but they will tell us their stories. And, you know, we want to know, you know, what's the same, what's different, what their struggles are. So in a moment, we're going to bring on Natasha Williams and I think I'm saying her name right, Liz Shostad. But yeah, Mindy's nodding. So, okay, so that's really good. Uh, it's been a couple of weeks, moms. Um, I just want to say that at the moment we're knocking wood because and I did share this on our Facebook page. Feel free to join our page if you uh just Google Schizophrenia Three Moms or Moms Trenches Schizophrenia, the group will come up. Um we are three moms. We each have sons with schizophrenia in various stages of recovery. And uh my son has been through a very hard time, but at the moment he is back on meds, which I am beyond thrilled about. Uh it is, and when I posted this on the Facebook page, because many people have been following that story, I got so many lovely and supportive comments, including, of course, from uh you guys, Mimi and Mindy, but you're never out of the woods, but I'll take any any clearing I can get. So I was able to actually have a lovely visit with my son and uh take him food shopping. So that's pretty much my update. Anything for you guys, Mindy? Is Jim doing any better?

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Jim is doing better. So he, as the listeners know, um moved in March to wonderful supportive housing, but he's had a tough transition and was in the hospital. And now, this week, I feel more hopeful than I have the whole time he's been there. He seems to be comfortable with the staff there, and it's a lot of rotating staff, a lot of young people. But for the first time, I feel like he's kind of solid. And he went back to the gym today. He hadn't been for two weeks, and when he was when he wasn't there, he went every day pretty much. Um, he went to work today, and he's had again like week and two-week gaps in going back to work, which he has to get to himself using the lift. So he needs motivation for these things, and then um, but he's working with them. They forgot to yesterday to give him his closet pine at the right time for his lab test today, you know, all these things that I, the mom, was doing when he was here living with us for the last five years. So he and they, I think, are figuring out that they need to do more and that I'm not there. And that's a good thing, but it's been rocky and it's better today.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Bums are hard to replace.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

That's a very good comment. Oh, you've got over for dinner the last two nights and plans to come again because they don't have food at this place. You know, they used to have um three meals a day in a dining room, and they changed to a different funding model starting on May 1st. And so um he has not, even when he was there when they had the meals, they didn't start him on them because he is they it was ending soon. So he's um that's an adjustment, you know, not to have have any regular meals.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

Yeah, that is that is an activity of daily living that is uh quite a challenge sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

So uh it's a social time that they you know don't have if they're not going to the dining room. Get on the board and change that immediately. All right. Well, but actually, one of our guests, one of our authors tonight, we she may talk about this when she gets on, but she was on the board of this organization and helped raise money, Liz Shostad, for Jim's uh the place where he is. So I thank her every day for doing that. And so uh yeah, I'll maybe I'll get her back on the board again.

unknown 5:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

Well, let's just interview them for now and we'll hit them up for help later. Um, Mimi, anything to report about Nick? Is he doing okay?

SPEAKER_01 6:07

He's doing okay. A bit of a disappointment last week. I went to all kinds of lengths to get us signed up to go to a life drawing class together because we did that when we were in Virginia with my youngest daughter, Rose, and he said he wanted to do it. So we got it, we drove the hour there, and then when we were in the restaurant before we went, he started telling me he didn't feel well, and you know, I talked to him again about the usual about you know, you know, you get um anxiety and a little, you know, nerves, but maybe you can rise above it. But he was very adamant about not feeling well, so we turned around and headed home and didn't go, and then as if to prove uh me wrong, he threw up in the car on the way home. So it was just fun all the way around.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Well, you know, I hate to wish this on you, but maybe he was physically ill and next week he'll go. Great, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

So he's physically ill. There goes my so moms don't know everything.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

I guess that's the moral of that one.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Very little sometimes, but anyway, whatever. We'll pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try again.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

That's pretty much our motto. Yeah, so um let's uh go ahead and bring in our two guests. Uh we're having them on together and they've never met until this episode. So, guys, you can go ahead and uh unmute and uh bring your cameras in. So, Natasha Williams is the author of a book uh called The Parts of Him I Kept. I'm so interested in reading this book. I haven't finished it. I just kind of glanced at it for now. It's been a week, but you can tell us the story. But it's an intimate account of a daughter's coming of age in the face of her father's schizophrenic unraveling. And when I was checking it out, one of the reviewers said, if you read the first 30 pages, you would cancel your own wedding to read the rest of it. So that's a pretty amazing review. And uh I Natasha Williams and I want to introduce you to our other guest, Liz Shostad. And Liz has written a memoir called You're Too Young to Understand. And that is about growing up with and caring for her father and your mother, I guess. So your mother had schizophrenia. Do I have that right? Okay, so both of you also mentioned the other parent without schizophrenia as not being exactly the stabling force that that you could need. So uh, and and you, Liz, want to learn to learn to show up for yourself and find ways to love and forgiveness. And so we are so interested in your journeys, and we have a lot of questions, but why don't we begin with at least giving you just a couple of minutes to give us a sort of thumbnail description of your story? Uh Natasha, can we start with you?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Sure, thank you. Um so I took took 10 years to write this book, and um I I actually started writing it at the end when my uh aging dad needed assisted living, and I was faced with the the short list of options for him, and um and based on sort of a long form essay, I was encouraged to write the whole memoir, and it it took me 10 years to figure out what that story was. In the end, I started the story um uh with the drowning of um my half-sister, and I really questioned whether and why to start there because she was a sister that I didn't know very well. Um, my father and parent, my parents separated when I was very young, and my dad had uh met a fellow schizophrenic at Pilgrim State, and they had five children together. Um it is a really dark moment in time in their lives and in our life. And in the end, even though my relationship with her was minimal, um I started there because I I felt that this is where we often encounter people's lives when it's public and there's mental illness involved. Privately, we all live day to day with um, as you know, so much uh sort of travail and heartache and love and inspiration um in between. Um but I felt like this was an opportunity for me to start with the headlines and then take the readers into what was behind the headlines.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

And um and so that's the that's uh that's that's uh a one page of the story, and you were your father's caregiver for many years of his life. Is that right? Yeah, thank you. Liz, how about you?

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Well, I think 10 years must be a magic number of years to get a memoir put together. Um, I also started writing my memoir about 10 years ago, and it was um when my father, who um he interesting life, he grew up a child in World War II in Russia. He was born in Russia and was in uh, you know, was taken prisoner, lived as a prisoner with his mom and brothers, and then in a refugee camp in Germany before immigrating to the United States and meeting my mother um at West Seattle High School, and they fell in love pretty quickly, and she had not started demonstrating um uh any signals of schizophrenia at the time, and um, and he had not started drinking heavily at the time. But yeah, he um so they uh they got together and had three children, raised us in the Midwest. Um, he had a stroke about 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago, and um it was sort of at that point where I um I had three kids of my own. They were relatively young, and I started to examine or want to examine more about my parents and recognizing that it was perhaps too late with my dad and probably impossible with my mother, who was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, one of the schizophrenia is when she was 48 and I was 20, was when she got her diagnosis. So, anyway, she was medical power of attorney for my father, and uh it was a really tough time for my sister and I. And I was uh I took that opportunity to start uh writing my memories and um more as a way to try to understand, um, try to get to know my parents better, uh, their choices, their decisions, their predicaments, and um, and and in turn then learn a little bit about myself.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

And I have to say, I I have read Liz's book because I got to read her manuscript and provide a blurb for her cover. And so um I know what a marvelous book that is. And Natasha, I haven't had a chance to read yours yet, but I've ordered it. So I'm looking forward to it. And just listening to what you said and having read Liz's book already, um, it sounds to me like you two should talk and that you have a lot in common, not just your books, but your families and um everything. And one thing that struck me, uh, Natasha, you start out with, you know, the tragedy with one of your siblings. And Liz also wrote about that uh something tragic with a couple of her siblings. And so I wonder if you could talk first about your siblings and how your parents' uh schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, whatever, uh affected you, and then how did it affect your siblings and what was the gamut that was run between affecting various family members?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Do you want to start, Liz, since I sure I'll go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Um, I think uh I think our family situation affected each of us very differently, as you might imagine it would. We're all three years apart. So it was my sister's the oldest. Three years later came my brother Greg, and then three years later it was I came. So I'm the youngest. Um uh you know, and we're also each born into the world with different sensibilities and different capabilities uh to deal with uh, you know, trauma and confusion. And um so I I often wondered why my brother made the choices he did. And I always wondered why he didn't make different decisions for a healthier life. Um and I I kind of ruminate on that a bit in a chapter in the book. Um uh he he does pass away early in life, and uh kind of write a funeral piece and I start to examine why I I do think my parents and their illnesses and the family's inability to manage those at all or even acknowledge them in some cases, um, probably impacted him the hardest. Um, my sister is the oldest, uh, took on a lot of anxiety because she probably felt like she needed to care for the rest of us. Um and uh and I think I I just tried to survive, you know, just tried to do what I could to get through each day. Um, and so I don't know, I I think ultimately I I wonder about this a lot, Mindy. And I saw the siblings question and I thought, oh, I'm just gonna ramble on that one because I still really haven't figured it out. I mean, we're all relatively, you know, we're all kind of the same genetic makeup and we're all put in the same family situation, but we each kind of ended up in very different places in life. And I'm not sure why about it, other than I think there's a lot of luck involved. There's a lot of, I feel like I was very fortunate.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Can I ask a clarifying question? Because you I I have not read your book yet. And your mother was diagnosed when you were 20. However, I am imagining there were some erratic behaviors before the diagnosis, right? So, were there things that you and your siblings went through that you just didn't understand that when your mother got the diagnosis, you went, oh, that's why. I mean, what are some of the things? Was she in the hospital? Did she like, can you just name a little bit some of the behaviors?

SPEAKER_03 17:49

It's really interesting. I'd like to highlight this because I imagine this happens in a lot of families where my mother um was clearly uh ill when I was seven years old, before that, probably as well. When I asked my dad, we had very little conversations about this, but one of the times I was able to ask him, he said, you know, well, you know, probably about when she was 28 or so. I mean, he like knew and I was very upset with him. Like he had done nothing, but um she it was never, it was never a crisis situation for us, or we never brought it to a crisis situation. Um, she had uh distorted thinking, she made associations that weren't there, she thought there were um, you know, uh Russian satellites that were um reading her mind and that um her thoughts were broadcast to the world. She had a lot of a lot of um very clearly schizophrenic thinking type thoughts and feelings of persecution, but um her psychosis never went to a point where oh, we gotta get her to a hospital right now. Um she was never dangerous. Um so it was a lot easier, not only because of the time in the 70s and 80s, but also you know, because she just she wasn't something that had to be dealt with, you know. Um that that it was allowed to linger and until my sister grew up, you know, graduated college, went out into the world, came back home, and was like, whoa, this is not okay. Because, you know, her her behaviors had become such that Kate came home and saw them in a way that she hadn't before, or maybe they had really gotten that much worse, and the rest of us were just like, you know, the frogs in the boiling water. So we were able to to attempt to get her help at that point in time, and that's when she got her diagnosis. So I was 20, my sister was 26, but we had lived with it. So I grew up with it. I grew up with a very very uh, you know, very isolating, um, uh confused. Um, you know, my dad's alcoholism was named. So that was usually our like I, you know, I would think, well, I I don't feel number normal because my dad's an alcoholic. You know, what's normal? Always looking for normal, which they say about adult children of alcoholics, but I feel like it wasn't that. It was it was my my uh how I was mothered.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

So thank you, Natasha. Can you fill us in? Uh, you know, with the with the sibling question as a frame, also adding some of the things you went through as a child.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I maybe because you're all uh have children with schizophrenia. Uh the first thought I had, because I was an only child of my parents, was the my father's siblings and the effect of his schizophrenia on them. Um, and you know, I just was very aware that they all moved very far away and um, you know, from him when they became adults. And um, I think it was just uh such a loss of childhood for them. Um maybe weirdly more so than me, um because their whole family centered around my father's mental illness, and he and my grandmother were very, very close. Um and uh for me, my father and I spent a lot of time alone. Um, you know, when you're schizophrenic and having bouts of mania, and thinking that you're the messiah and being paranoid, friends fall away really. Really fast. And um, so we spent a lot of time alone. My parents were separated, and I spent weekends with him with my grandmother kind of on site because she was the person who really kept him housed um until she died. And I mean, I think that Liz is sort of hinting at this, and yeah, I can't wait to talk to you, Liz, off camera. Um, you know, well, actually, I don't uh I'm gonna shift gears. Um the thing about my father's illness, um beyond all um of the psychosis and the mania was um the person that he was. And my father was a deeply, deeply kind and generous and loving man. And so um um to be in his presence was to feel very seen and very recognized, even in the midst of his delusional um psychosis. Um, an example I'll give you, I think I'm veering away from the question, but I don't have siblings that I knew about until much later. Um there was a time when my father was um feeling very messianic and and paranoid that none of us recognized him as Christ. And you know, certainly we must be possessed by the devil. And and the exorcist came out um at when I was eight years old, and my father um it saw the film without me and decided that since I was his daughter and the the devil was after him, that I was at risk. And so his impulse was to take me to see the exorcist. And when I asked him many years later why the hell he did that, he said he was trying to school me in the ways of the devil. Now, from the outside, one could say it was really bad choice on his part as a parent. Um, I was so angry at him, even at eight years old. I walked out of the movie theater cursing him out, literally. Um, but underneath that impulse was his desire to protect me from the demons that uh that were after him. And for whatever reason, I understood that as a child. I understood his his silence, his sort of uh you you'd asked about um ano and anointing, yeah. And uh I I actually uh I had to look it up because um I I didn't know the term. Um what I was really aware of was that um the the elogia, my father's lack of words, and um so uh for me without siblings was to sort of face the um the abyss of his ability to sort of come back to reality, to share his experience, and and as a child, I just uh I spent a lot of hours trying to imagine where he went, trying to imagine what his experience was. Um and I I think as an only child of of my parents, I I have a sister through my mother, and I have those siblings who I make mention of and come back into the book at the end. I could have been a very impatient young woman. I'm not, and so uh I facing my father's mental illness um taught me a tremendous amount of empathy and patience.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

You were lucky that your father sided with you. You were with him instead of having his delusions put you opposite him, which is I think something many people experience as mothers and and children. And I wonder, and you didn't um learn about anasygnosia until we sent you a couple questions ahead, and there it was in there. So it's hard to do.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

And for listeners who don't know what that is, that is the the the lack of ability to realize you're ill. It's yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

So Liz did write about it in in your book, so maybe you could talk about it from the standpoint of a child who maybe didn't have such a positive experience all the time with your uh family situation, and then when you did learn about it, so how did you learn about anasygnosia that your mother didn't know she was ill? And so it was hard to get for her to get help. And how did that affect you? And how did knowing about it help?

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah, such a good question. I think Mimi wants to say something.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

I just want to say one thing before we veer away from it. Natasha, you know, um I understand what Mindy's saying, but I think there's something that should be identified and recognized here, and that's that yes, your father didn't put you as the in the adversarial role, as often people with schizophrenia will do, like our sons will do. I know Mindy has lived through this, where he, her son identified her as the devil or as the enemy, and and you know, there's horrible, horrible anecdotal stories about mothers being harmed and killed and all of that. But there's something else here that I think is bigger, and that's it. When you're a child, you look to your parent to create that force field, to create that that safe world for you to live in when you're a child. And when a child of five, six, eight, ten is rather than, and even if you know our parents, when we're little, create for us a safe world. That's not even true, but we believe it, and that's what we need when we're children. You didn't have that. You were a cohort with your father in this scary, not real world, and you didn't know that that wasn't the real world. So that created, I would imagine, a world of you know, unsureness and fear and trepidation and eggshells that uh it's hard to even imagine, you know. So, yes, he was good to you, but he was good to you in terms of pulling you into this scary world that he lived in, which was probably a lot more than a child should have to deal with, I would think. I mean, am I projecting? Uh it just seems to me to be not all that wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Well, I guess, I guess what I the the I think a major thrust of my book is um like Liz, I'm trying to understand my own sort of coming of age and identity formation in the in the face of my father's unraveling and and and trying to figure out how that formed me, in part so that my own children don't have to sort of contend with all the unspoken um, you know, family baggage. Um, that definitely became a driving force. But I think the other thing I just want to say to that Mimi is that you know, people are have an illness, they live with an illness, but they are still also the person that they are. And my father happened to have had this largesse of heart and spirit that impacted people throughout his life. And um, and you know, this it's a harrowing story. He was, you know, prostitutes, drug dealers, he he made all the wrong choices and was taken advantage of by all the wrong people. And yes, it was harrowing, but I also think that you are all probably more stupendous mothers than you would have ever imagined being because of what you have faced, being a parent of of a child who has schizophrenia. And I feel that Liz and I are probably uh I will contend I am I am a better person having had to face that. And that's that's really all I was trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

I completely get that. And you know, I I did a talk at NAMI, and what I ended it with was schizophrenia is in in regard to what you're saying about your father's large ass and being able to see and hold on to that. I say schizophrenia is arguably one of if not the worst mental illness, and it manifests itself in ways that are ugly and violent and threatening and and mind-boggling. And uh my comfort in this whole thing in my situation is I look at my son and I say, Uh-uh, uh, here he has this awful disease, and yet, even this, even schizophrenia, could not touch his goodness. He is as good a human as he was on the day he was born, and he always will be. I see that golden child, and um, and it's heartwarming to hear you say what you're saying, because you see that with your father.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

I think I think there's uh I hear all that. Um I think there's a journey we all go through as children to get to a point, whatever our parents are, where we go, they did the best they could, and I have to grow myself up now. And and your whole book, Natasha, is getting to that love and forgiveness place. And so, and I think and we've all spoken on uh other episodes about how Mimi and Mindy and I find joy anyway, and you know, we refuse to, you know, there's finding moments of joy. So it's so wonderful to look at it from that place that you've worked so hard to get to. So, and you know, I know even when my son is symptomatic, he's a nice kid. So, you know, and we take heart in that. Um, Liz, did you want to add anything to this? You're nodding your head a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Or back to back to my question, too, about anasygnosia.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Yeah, yeah, I can I can I can do both, I think. Yeah, I think that, you know, my mother did not um bring me in on her delusions. I was I was someone that she couldn't trust most of the time. Um and it was very hard. It was very hard once I realized that she had a mental illness, um for me to separate her from her illness, because I never she was a very prim and proper woman, um, raised um raised that way, and uh very uh kind of stoic, um, had a lot of Norwegian in her and um wasn't very warm at all. So I I didn't feel I didn't have a loving relationship with my mother, and there wasn't much of a um so so one of my pursuits absolutely was try to was to try to understand who she was, particularly when she and my dad fell in love. Um, and you know, Dr. Javier Amador was um also uh someone who endorsed my book, and he's also on the cover with Mindy. And one in his longer blurb, he talks about um, you know, the universal quest that I think Natasha and I were on in our books, even though we have a little bit of a different flair to our quest um of understanding, you know, finding the humanity in our parents. And um so, you know, I feel like I had to unravel some things to get there. Um, but that that's certainly how I arrived at um uh love and forgiveness. Um, with my mom and my, so she, I didn't yeah, I didn't know what anasyngnosia was until um well into my book, writing of my book. But I I think I had a sense that um, you know, my sister and I would talk about it and we'd be upset that it was not, it was not even after her diagnosis, that it was never a conversation in our family. If she wasn't going to acknowledge her illness, then we certainly could not. Um, she just held that sort of power, you know. Um she she, if you were in a room with her, like she controlled um the tone. And, you know, there's no way you're gonna bring up the fact that she might have schizophrenia um if she was not going to. So I often wondered if if she thought she had it or not. And I think there was a part of me that intuitively knew that it could be part of the illness that she could not recognize her her, that she did not have insight into it. And I did start changing my behaviors in order to build a relationship with her that were very much part of the leap method that um Dr. Amador later. So, I mean, when I was about 30 years old, I just I I had developed a career in organization development and I was understanding how to change patterns and companies and with with teams, and I was like, well, I should apply this to my own life. And I went home and I started just listening to my mother and not trying to argue with her and not trying to tell her what I knew was the truth, um, but simply to empathize, like, oh wow, I I would also feel really, really badly if if I thought, you know, dad did that to me, and you know, whatever it might be. And she just visibly just like relaxed and um and and became much more lucid. Um, she didn't often share her delusions, and so there, I didn't have many opportunities for that. Um, but the uh the anasygnosia is very powerful, as was learning what her disease, what her illness was. Um, I think naming things is um is incredible in terms of allowing people to learn more and and and turning from anger to empathy. Um I think you know, just understanding that someone is struggling and not doing something intentionally is um it allows you to be much more empathetic.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Thank you. Natasha, anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

I just wanted to say, um uh my I think my father was I know my father was aware of his illness, um, and we we did talk about it as a family, not directly, but just coping with it, you know. But the I remember in writing the book in the later years and dealing with my father when I had children, um, you know, I remember feeling this frustration that like in all these years, you know, with the trajectory of his life, like the reality of him not being the messiah had never landed, you know. That there was always this sort of subliminal, like even in the nursing home, I remember he had this crush on this um more than a crush. I mean, his aide, they called her Frankie's wife, and um, she literally like left her shoes and coat in his room, and it was kind of a crazy situation. And she got pregnant, and my dad, um, there's a scene in the book where he's telling me he wants to get her um uh a baby shower gift, and he wants to get her a dress. I'm like, Dad, but you know, baby shower gifts, you you get the baby a gift, and he's like, Yeah, and then he breaks into this huge smile and shakes his head, and he's like, I don't know how I got hoodwinked into this whole baby thing. And I I I realized that he he felt that that um Maya had immaculately conceived their baby, that this was his and I said to him, Dad, do you really still believe that you're you know the Messiah, essentially? And he shook his head, he's like, Nah, but he so believed it, you know, he's so at his core, which is certainly a form of um anasognosia. That it was uh a slightly different tack, I think.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

So at that point he had enough insight to know he shouldn't believe it, but he does.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Did you did either one of you or both of you have um any stable adults, maybe another family member or someone at school or anybody that you could share with? And whether you did or didn't, um what would you recommend to adults that would see what's happening to a child? What would what could they do to help that child? So if you had someone that helped you, and regardless, what advice do you have for adults that want to help children in your situations?

SPEAKER_04 40:05

Right. And thinking of children, how much you know, as your adults looking back with this amazing hindsight and um and the glass of forgiveness and love and the big picture. But think of when you were little. Right? Is that the question, Mindy? Yes. Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

I could start with an answer to that question. I did some research at one point, and um I was surprised to find that in developing countries um the recovery rate uh for schizophrenia is better. And one of the suggestions about that is that there are more extended community networks and more extended family systems there. It doesn't fall just to, you know, the parents, and you're not as isolated because isolation I think is a is a huge thing. So um, you know, uh so for me, I I was a I was finding adults whenever I could who seemed stable and trustworthy and loving, and I was drawing them in to be um, yeah, to take care of me. Um I became their babysitters, I became their knock on the door, come hang out at their apartment. Um, you know, I just uh teachers. Um and I think um I think that also, you know, my father as a mentally ill person um found people who would stand by him and talk to him and show up. Um and his mother played a huge role um in taking care of him. So I I I guess just I think it's very unfair that parents, particularly mothers, are expected to shoulder that whole burden. And um, I think clearly there's a lot of other people who take care of us in our lives, and and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

That makes a lot of sense, Liz. That makes a lot of sense with the extended communities, like it's everybody's responsibility, and everyone's there to help and lend a hand. Um, I my sister, I'll tell you, my sister found other families. She was really good at that, and they were stable and they she had her boyfriend's family in high school. Those parents loved her like she was their daughter. Um, they were smart, thoughtful people. Again, we weren't talking about the illness, and we were talking about the alcoholism, but we hadn't identified mom's illness. And um, so I think she she did it right. Like I think I was suspect of all adults. I and I think I think today that's still something I have a little, I have a little bit of, I question authority. Um uh, but you know, so I I was pretty much in escape mode. I was pretty much in, you know, doing all the wrong things to try to find, um, to try to feel better and be cared for. And uh so I would suggest um, you know, for for children now, I think the problem is like not a whole lot of people understand schizophrenia. Not a whole, not a whole, you know, even if I knew what my mother had, first of all, you know, back in the 80s, nobody did. But even now, it's hard to find someone. I would just, you know, I would say. It would be so smart if someone knew what their parents' diagnosis was, or even if they didn't, to find a counselor and and you know, ask to talk. Um I think I think it's a lot more possible today, you know, and I see what's available to my kids through their schools and other activities, and just kind of the topic of mental health is so much more prominent now, even though serious mental illness is still um a struggle for a lot of people. Um yeah, just just finding someone knowledgeable of the disease that can that can talk with that child.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Well, now you both have children. I I don't know what age group they're in now, but I'm curious, are they aware of all of this? When did you talk to them about it? At what age do you think that kids are able to understand this?

SPEAKER_03 45:00

You wanna go, Natasha?

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Um sure. Um I it was important to me that my children knew my father because of what he conveyed in the world. Um, but I never ever left my children alone with him. Um and um and so they had, you know, they had a relationship with him that was somewhat from a distance. You know, he came to their shows, he was the the first person to start clapping at a piano recital, and um the person who la clapped the loudest, and um and it when when my kids became teenagers, I guess this is the answer to your question, they started asking me questions. Um, my oldest daughter sat me down in the kitchen and said, So because grandpa has schizophrenia and you don't, does that mean that I won't? And I've decided I'm not gonna do drugs because I understand that there's more of a risk. Well, wow, that was amazing. Wow. She actually, I'm not sure that that was actually true, but uh, I mean, I know now that there was some drug doing happening. Um, but you know, she's always my oldest daughter has always been very sort of logical, and she's smart and very sensitive. And um, it's my younger daughter, actually, uh, who I think formed more of a bond with my father. Um and in the book, um, there was a there was a a point at which my father called me and told me that Callie was schizophrenic. And um I stopped speaking to him for many months. Um, I drew a line in the sand there. And you know, I I grappled with this in my own life. I mean, I'm actually embarrassed to say that I never thought about my children's risk for mental illness. My father's illness always felt so much his own. I just didn't even consider the genetic predisposition, which and I'm I was a molecular biology student in graduate school. I mean, you would think I would have given this some thought. Um, but um I did start reading a lot about it after his prognosis. And of course, my you know, my youngest was 15 at the time, so she was actually crazy. So it was like, oh yeah, she's she's clear.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Every teenager is a little bit, yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Does she have hard to tell when you got a teenager?

SPEAKER_00 48:11

No, so but you know, I mean, you girls are prone to schizophrenia for uh till a much later age, right? I think it's until their mid-30s. Um, so my children are not out of the woods. Um, but you know, they've been in therapy, both of them, you know, just normal adjustment therapy and in a crazy world. And um, you know, we have an open relationship. And um I guess what I want to just end by saying is that my daughter, my youngest daughter, who's very dyslexic and didn't read much in her younger years, told me she wanted to take my book with her when she took a gap year in Europe. She was going to carry my unpublished manuscript with her. And at the time, I decided to pull that scene where my father, of course, makes his prognosis. There was no reason she needed to read that. And I pulled out every reference to it. And then when I got a publisher and um I uh I found a minute where we were in a car and she brought up therapy, and I just asked her, you know, how do you, you know, like you feel solid, you feel like you're okay, you know, because they knew that this was in our family, and she said yes, and I said, Oh, good. So there's a scene that I haven't shared with you, and you know, I think grandpa loved you so much, saw himself so much in you that he just, you know, he wanted to convey this special quality to you. Um, and you know, I I want you to read this chapter now. Um so she read it and she was fine. And I sort of I mean to say that it didn't throw her, I think we we came at it in a um in a thoughtful way, and um and both of my children are are um uh seemingly fine, and to whatever extent genetics and and circumstances come together, um it's they don't don't seem to be showing proclivity.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

You know, it's something that I've thought about, and I I I haven't actually ever even said this to Mindy and Randy too, but um because their daughters have kids, did they express fear about that? Because you know, I'm right now where my oldest daughter has seven kids, but my younger two daughters are have kind of decided no kids for them, and I've never really asked them if it's some sort of fear of the genetics and all of that. Did your daughters discuss that with you guys?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Uh my daughter um hasn't really discussed it. She did have has one child and um who's been on our podcast, right? Yeah, she our daughter, yeah. Angela discussed this, I think, maybe on our podcast. I can't remember when we had our daughters on. Um, but I I don't I haven't discussed it with her, but I always thought one child might have been part of her thinking because Jim is her younger brother.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

And I myself kind of walk on eggshells a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Yeah. And I'm my daughter's um uh going to turn 50 next year, so she's out of the woods, I think, but you never know. But I I have thought of my granddaughter, and so I have given her Stern lectures about not using drugs with given her genetics, and she has um pretty much, I think, followed that. So I've thought about it a lot. My grandmother had schizophrenia, um, Natasha and Liz. So I um I was always worried about myself. And I minored in psychology for both my BA and my MA, and I was always looking at myself and how that would play out. And I actually never thought about it with my daughter because she was so normal and always has been. And so anyone that knows her, I don't think there's a inch of her that would possibly be susceptible to schizophrenia. But now with my granddaughter and drugs so prevalent, um, you know, I'm once again on the, you know, looking. So Liz, for the same question.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Yeah, um, I I decided when I was 13 I wasn't going to have children. Um, and uh I I it's because I didn't want to become like my mother, and um, but I didn't know what I was saying when I said that. Um, you know, uh so because we didn't know what she was dealing with, um, you know, my husband and I ended up um being very thoughtful and intentional about our decision, a decision to have children. It wasn't an immediate, oh, of course you get married and have children. Um you know, I looked up the statistics at that point, and there was nobody else in our extended family that we were aware of that had um that had schizophrenia, and it it just didn't seem like the there was that big of an increase in um in likelihood that my children would develop it. Um at the time, I didn't think it was significantly worrisome. Um my kids are now 18, 20, and 22. And um my 22-year-old's about to graduate from Carleton College and she wants to go to med school. The 20-year-old, well, 20-year-old is at the University of Puget Sound. Um, she's gonna study in Ecuador in the fall, and she's looking into environmental science. And um, my youngest is here at home with me, and he is uh gonna be a senior next year. And um he also, Natasha said, I know mom, cannabis is something I should not be um messing around with. And I've told my friends, uh, you know, I'm not doing it. Um, so it was just good to hear, uh not knowing for sure if the follow-through was there, but um I uh I think it'll always be a concern. Um, but I I'm concerned about a lot of things with my kids. So I don't, you know, I look out for a lot of things, you know, sadness as well as um just you know distorted thinking.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

So you know, parenthood, even without anything in your family, yeah, parenting's a big risk. Yeah, you know, you never know what you're gonna get. And so uh believe it or not, we're we're nearing the end of our time. And I'll just briefly answer your question, Mimi. My daughter's kids are first, second, and third grade, so they're still very young. What keeps running through my mind is early detection, early detection, early detection, and no cannabis. So, you know, we keep we're keeping our eyes open. We are, you know, of course it crosses your mind. Of course it crosses your mind, but we keep our eyes open. And if my daughter ever expresses some worry about it, is that, you know, we will catch it early. No one, you know, I was blindsided. I didn't even know what schizophrenia was, you know, much less anastignosia. Like, I'm just like, why is he having such a weird adolescence? So armed with education, it's a much, much better. We're we're gonna have a guest on the podcast, um, Mimi and Mindy, we have to pick the date, but um of a of a young man who has written a book about his own schizophrenia, and he it was caught early. I mean, it was caught, he's about to start NYU full-time and has written a book about his experience, and he credits the early detection for, you know, so there's there's many, many stories, even if the worst happens.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Um what's the title of that book, Randy?

SPEAKER_04 56:13

It is I am gonna put it in the show notes because it's downstairs. His name is Wyatt Forte. And uh, you know what? I'm just gonna look it up right now and then I'll edit this part out. Let's see. He started Wyatt is very clear about his um the not those not so little voices from adolescent psychosis to wellness and empowerment.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

Yeah, he's a really, really wonderful kid and um young man, I should say. And so we're very excited to to hear his story as well. So, Wyatt, shout out to you. I would like to um end with each of you just uh sharing again the title of your book, how people can get in touch with you, other links that you'd like us to know about, how we can help you on your journeys, just final words to people. Uh Natasha, I do you feel prepared to go first with that?

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Yes, I actually would love to um just end with a couple of things that I've learned. Uh on track New York is a multi-pronged approach to early psychosis treatment and detection. It's a wonderful model if it's not in your state. It's something to know about. I've been learning about it um through the public speaking and presenting. And also the Hearing Voices Network, which I'm sure you guys have heard of, um, which just strikes me as sort of a 12-step program for folks who are hearing voices. And also for me, you know, adult children of alcoholics meetings were really helpful, 12-step program meetings, um, because it's a very similar, you know, uh idea of grappling with not having control over your environment. Um, so I just kind of wanted I I didn't get to that earlier. Um I I hope that you'll all read this book. Um, I feel like it touches people in a way that is so gratifying to me. Um my goal is to humanize living with mental illness and caring for people who live with mental illness. And um, I think it's essential as the numbers of people who are grappling with severe mental illness is increasing, and as the world gets more complicated, I think our stories mean a lot in the world, and what you um three in the trenches are doing to share those stories is really important. Title of the book is The Parts of Him I Kept, The Gifts of My Father's Madness. Um, I have a website, Natasha WilliamsWriter.com. There are links to buy the book, there are excerpts, and um thank you for having me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:18

Thank you so much, Liz.

SPEAKER_03 59:21

Yeah, um I uh I would echo a lot of what Natasha has said, and I cannot wait to read your book. I think we have some very similar themes and experiences, and um I've I've enjoyed reading all of the memoirs. I think if you haven't read Laura Flynn's Swallow the Ocean, um, that's a good one from about 12 years ago, maybe more now. Um, anyway, I my book is You're Too Young to Understand. And um my website is Liz Shasta.com. Of course it's L-I-Z-S-J-A-A-S-T-A-D.com. And I I truly believe that sharing our stories is the way that we um we make things um uh speakable. We get help for people, we get resources, and um the reason why they're hard to talk about is because we've kept them silent. So um these stories and these books are really important, and your podcast is incredible in that um in helping. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

And thank you. And I will add just a couple of things for our listeners. We do have episodes where we talk about cannabis, we do have episodes where we talk with Dr. Amador about the leap um method. We do have one on the Hearing Voices Network, and our feelings are a bit mixed about it, gonna be honest. Uh you know, like any other tool, it can work for some people, and for other people, it can be a problem. So you can check out that episode as well. It depends on how far you take it. And but I think we all need support for what we know that we need. And uh we are just so, and then there's the episode where we speak to our daughters, and I think Mindy, we had your granddaughter on an episode. So check us out. The stories together we we can make a difference. And Natasha and Liz, I thank you so much for sharing your stories in your writing and with us tonight. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches. You can help out the podcast and help others by sharing the podcast and by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts and or on YouTube. And remember, you can reach us at mindygryling.com, randy k.com, or MiriamHeifenfeldman.com.