The Reiner Family Tragedy: A Fear Too Many Live With (Ep. 128)

Two days after the tragic murders of Rob and Michele Reiner, allegedly at the hands of their middle son, Nick, we three moms comment on the system, the families who try everything to help someone they love, the fears many of us live with. We also vent about system failures, and the unforgivable response from Donald Trump.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If it is a person with mental illness or psychosis from drugs, everyone's always looking for a motive, delusions, and hallucinations that there isn't any rhyme or reason. They're just terrified of and protecting themselves.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Well, let's put our money where our mouth is and start funding treatment. Because even if you can get them held or get them put in a hospital, there has to be a bed for them, and there aren't any.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

I just said this response is unforgivable, immoral, narcissistic, and dangerous. In my comments were Trump supporters who agreed with me. Like it crossed the party lines because parents are parents no matter what. We recorded this podcast just a couple of days after the tragic deaths of Rob and Michelle Reiner. We heard from listeners, and we have been in situations that could have ended this way. Here's our take. Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia: Three Moms in the Trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feldman, Mindy Greiling, and Randy Kaye. This is kind of a special impromptu edition episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches because this is December 16th. And yesterday, Rob Reiner and his beautiful wife, Michelle, of 36 years, I think. First we heard they were they passed away. Then we heard murdered, homicide, um, knife wounds. Then the rumors started flying. They think they've arrested their son and addiction problems, which is no secret. And then the mumbling started about mental health issues, which it it's pretty clear that he had. And we uh we are three moms. If you have never listened to us, we each have sons definitely diagnosed with schizophrenia, which we're not saying that Nick Reiner had, uh, but he's very open about the fact that he had severe addiction issues, and it looks as though he had mental health issues as well. We're not saying what we're not diagnosing, but why I wanted to meet with you guys, Mimi and Mindy, is because this is the fear that we all live with. This we hear from so many listeners who are at the beginning of their journey trying to navigate around it. And then we hear from people who have loved ones in jail or who live in fear of their loved one or have to lock their room at night because they're afraid their loved one will come in. And, you know, of the three of us, our sons are all alive and currently in treatment. There are ups and downs, as you know, if you listen to our podcast. But this is a fear that we all live with. And I would love to just talk. I just keep thinking about the Reiners and how much they seem to have loved this child, done everything in their power to help him, help him through his addictions, thinking of the siblings who love their brother. And we all know the heartbreak of having this wonderful child turn a corner and change before our very eyes. So um would you agree this is a fear that many families live with? Whoever wants to talk, I'm not calling on people.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

This is definitely a fear, and um it drives me wild, quite frankly, to be as long as we are honest on this podcast, when people in the mental health world, very educated people, say people with uh mental illnesses are no more dangerous than anyone else. And those of us who have lived through psychosis with sons who have delusions that they need to shoot me in the face, which is what Jim thought when he was uh first ill, I just uh that scares me to death because then families aren't on guard like they should be before they understand the illness. Um, yes, Jim is no more dangerous than anyone else. Right now, he might be safer because he's getting meds. But when he was not using his meds, and he was using illicit drugs, he was very capable of being dangerous, and he was. You know, he caused a car accident on purpose, listening to his voices. So I think uh families need to be aware of this downside. If someone is uh psychotic and using illicit drugs, which obviously Nick Reiner was using illicit drugs, um we shouldn't pretend that there isn't danger there. I think the Reiners um were perfectly happy to say their son was using drugs. That's all they talked about for years. It was only recently that we started to hear mental illness. And it's that combination mental illness, untreated drugs, it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah. And I wouldn't uh I'm gonna kind of um clarify that I wouldn't say perfectly happy. Uh, you know, we are all people who've told our stories from from a place of hope, because when we each wrote our books, you know, fix what you can, he came in with it, been behind his voices, our sons were and are somewhere on the shoot some ladders game, but they're still with us, and there's still hope that they can live some kind of a life. And that's where we all are right now. But I believe the Reiners probably, and I'm just guessing, I don't know them, obviously. I'm guessing they were in a place because they made a movie, the story of Charlie or something, I forget the name of it is, with their son about his addiction issues. And he was probably in one of those sweet spots where he was sober and had just gotten out of rehab, and like, yes, dad, let's tell our story. And we all have those sweet spots, but we also have to keep our guard up. I uh exactly what you said. I mean, you you guys know, and some of our listeners know, that a a year and change ago, my son was using crack cocaine and not taking his medication, and he didn't mean to hurt me, but tried to jump into my car as I was driving away from him and could have caused a serious accident to either one of us, and s probably regretted it when he sobered up. But I mean, and I had to get a protective order against him. And you know what? We're in a good spot today. We'll see if he keeps his doctor appointment tomorrow, but I still have that protective order because he doesn't live with me. And if he were to show up and act strangely, I need to be able to call the police and say, I didn't invite him in. I mean, that protection because it's just it's just frightening. My son is the sweetest, kindest, nicest kid. But in the throes of the illness and addiction, you never know what anyone will do. We have been there too.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

And that is that where there's this war going on between the people who love guns and the people who want guns to be more sensibly controlled and and um and that whole thing. And so what happens is whenever there's a mass shooting, all the people start talking about, oh, well, it's a mental health problem, it's not a gun problem because they don't want to talk about the gun component in it because they're predisposed to want to protect guns more than they want to protect either our society or these people who are sick and need help. And um because of that, the mental health world has responded by saying people with mental illnesses are no more likely to be mass murderers or or you know uh shooters than anyone else. And the problem is both things have validity to them. The thing is that, yes, it is true that people with serious mental illness overall are not more likely to be serial killers or or mass shooters. But the thing is that most mass shooters are people with some kind of mental illness. But you have to take those two apart from each other, and and we can't go around, as Mindy said, saying, oh, there's nothing to be afraid of because individually in our own lives, there's a lot to be afraid of, and we need to own that, and we need to be honest about that for the sake of ourselves and our families and others. But I think we need to be really clear of what's happening here because we've been pushed into this corner. The mental health world has been pushed into the corner by the gun people who keep touting mental illness as the reason why there are all this gun violence. Right. I just think it's a distinction that needs to be pointed out.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

That is absolutely true. That is exactly what happens, and then the mental health people react and oversimplify on their side, too.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Right. None of it is simple. And something else also I wanted to say is yes, it's true that the Reiners were very open about him and his drug uh struggles. But think about between the lines here. You know, the more that's coming out, the more it becomes very clear that everybody knew he had some kind of mental illness. But they didn't talk about that because it's more and acceptable in our culture to talk about drug abuse and talk about addiction. Somehow that's okay, but we can't talk about mental illness. There's so much stigma and shame attached to that. And there's so much overlap because you have people with mental illness who are psychosis, but who are psychotic, but then psychosis can be brought on by the drugs, and psychosis can exist within drug use without mental illness. So it's just it's all there, and it's a big morass, but I think it's very telling that they never mentioned mental illness, that they only talked about the the addiction aspect of it. And also, I think another component of that is here you have a family who obviously were good people, obviously cared about this and tried, and without a doubt, had the resources none of us had. And I've always said all along, oh, if only I had all the money in the world, I could have sent Nick here and done this and done that. And over and over again, I see these scenarios of families who had everything, every resource available to them, and still couldn't fix this, couldn't address this in a in a uh a way that that worked because of the system. And I think that all three of these things are really important to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

I I think you're you're absolutely right. I'm with you on that. And I I feel compelled to add that in light of the other things that have happened in the news, the shooting at Brown and the um Bondi Beach in Australia, that it isn't always mental illness, it could be terrorist influence as well. It's a complicated issue. There's not any one solution, and there will be people who will say, well, you know, we could control guns, but you know, Nick Reiner used a knife, and you know, this one used put you used a car, and this one. So, yes, it's part of the issue. Gun control is part of the issue, and we're not gonna solve that tonight, but but I would like to read a statement that came from the National Shattering Silence Coalition. It was their response to a post by Tim Murphy, who was with the Schizophrenia and Psychosis Action Alliance. They released a statement today, and it's in answer for all of the votes are coming in, including the President of the United States, which we'll get to in a minute. Speaks really well, but let's comment on it. It says, This is the fear many families live with in a society that does not understand psychosis or recognize it as the medical emergency it is. We can't predict when a delusion may become dangerous or where a false belief might lead. I mean, there are people with schizophrenia who have drowned their children because their voices told them it might be a good thing. Like there's a lot of issues why violent acts may not even be meant to be violent, or it could be done in anger, like we're not here to diagnose Nick Reiner or anything, but there's a lot of a lot of moving pieces. But I think we can all agree with this part of the statement that uncertainty is constant and frightening. When tragedies occur, the motives are often misunderstood. Many individuals were not trying to harm a loved one. They believed they were acting out of love, convinced they were protecting someone, or they believed they themselves were in danger. Incidents like this re-traumatize families who have lived this reality. There's more to it. You can go to National Shattering Silence Coalition on Facebook and check out more of their statement. But honestly, the number of families that have reached out for help when they sensed danger and been turned away is definitely part of the problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

That's a huge part of the problem. And we could be diagnosing people, screening them early. You know, all of our sons, we too thought it was drugs, you know, when they were really young. And no one uh that was dealing with the drug part of things educated me at least. No one said, you know, it could be mental illness, or we should screen them for mental illness. And then when you finally tumble to the fact that it is mental illness, you even have a diagnosis. If you call the crisis team, they will come and say, if the person isn't voluntary, there is nothing we can do. They're not dangerous to themselves or others at right now when we're seeing them. So there's nothing we can do. And they leave. And then there's the family with someone who was traumatized by the crisis team coming, they're absolutely riled up. And that's when it's a very dangerous time for families. Um, you know, it's better. I learned not don't call them because it's not going to be helpful. They're going to come.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

And not only that, you run the risk of them shooting your kid.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

The crisis team. Oh, yeah. If the police come. Right. If it's the police and not the embedded social workers, absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I want to read. I heard from a listener today, who, as we all are, I mean, it's there, but for the grace of the universe go I. You know, we just never know. We can only imagine what happened in that house that night. We know they were having a fight. I don't know if they called the police. Like, no, nobody knows yet. Details will come out. But I feel for those siblings who you know there were good moments growing up, the three of them. These kids were loved. There were three of them. Uh, I know how much my daughter misses her brother the way he used to be, and how much we hang on to the good days when he's good. He spent Thanksgiving with us. It was a lovely time, and you know, we just hang on to it. But I heard from a listener whose son has could be like Nick Reiner, and he's been in and out, caused a car accident, went into jail. They gave him his meds, and they didn't give him his meds. The whole story went back and forth. Um I I don't have permission to share the story, but it could be anybody because we've had we get many messages like this. But what this listener said, she just wants to know what we can do? You know, how can we make this better? And you know, we spent a lot of time griping about the system. Uh, and we say, why can't the US politicians come up with a system where we can access better therapies earlier? Yes, we just said that. You know, why can't they see the connections between drugs, including weed and the rise of mental illness? When we call the police, they do the what they can, but the laws are made to protect people with disabilities. They don't protect those suffering from dual diagnosis. I mean, there's so much wrong with the system and many, many families who reach out for help and are and are turned away until it's too late. Um, but you know, Mindy, I know that Jim from your book, so I'm not revealing any secrets, he was, didn't his voices say he was supposed to kill you and he found a way not to do that?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yes, he he was supposed to shoot me in the face because I looked so evil. And that I think is something people don't understand. It's not like they're mad at their parents, so they're trying to shoot them or something. They might have a delusion that their pet that isn't their parent, it's someone else. And they Jim thought he had to kill me in order to get his real mom back. And the time that you're thinking of from my book, he, you know, he came at me, he came out of his bedroom, and you know, I just was trembling. You know, I'm tall myself, but he's taller and bigger. And he just shoved me aside so roughly up against the wall. And I thought, okay, I've had it now. Um, and then he just kept going and he went and walked like for a whole day. And his voices told him that if he didn't stop walking, he was going to die, or maybe even his real mom was going to die. I mean, all these convoluted things that go through someone's head, they it doesn't make sense. So that's another thing that drives me wild. If it is a person with mental illness or psychosis from drugs, the everyone's always looking for a motive. You know, there isn't any motive if they have delusions and hallucinations. That there isn't any rhyme or reason. They're just terrified often, protecting themselves from these monsters that they don't think are their real parents. I just think is really sad. And you know what I feel saddest about Nick Reiner now is, you know, at best, I mean, he could get the death penalty. He's charged with um two felony murders. You know, he could have life in prison.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Yes. I mean, they can go whatever they will do.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

But what makes me really sad, and it's what I thought about with Jim, is this is the last thing the Reiners wanted. You know, they love their son. The idea that he would be put to death or spend the rest of his life, he's only 32, in prison. Um, you know, they they must that would break their hearts. And that just that's what I thought about with Jim. I thought if he does kill me, I hope he kills himself too, because I didn't want him to be somewhere where I couldn't advocate for him for the rest of his life and be in that kind of situation.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Talk about Sophie's choice. I mean, these are the things that we reckon with. These are the things that become our quotidian thoughts is well, if he murders me, I hope he kills himself afterwards so that you know he wouldn't be put in jail. I mean, it's like remember when they were little boys? I mean, you the idea that this is what we've come to and this is what our system forces us into is infuriating. You know, coming out of a really great month period that sandwiched between a month ago, somebody who was very dear to me, involved in a murder suicide where he ended up dead, as did his girlfriend, and he shot his mother. And now this, and neither one of those people were considered mentally ill. And you know, there's this whole argument as to, well, would you have to be mentally ill by definition to do something like this? To go in and and kill both your parents, or you know, so after the act, we can look at it and say, well, you'd have to be mentally ill to do that, but there has got to be a way to you can't save everyone and you can't make sure this never happens, but it happens every day.

unknown 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah. And and I I there's a part of me because I'm a mom, as we all are, that imagines perhaps that Nick Reiner did this. In a fit of psychosis, and when he sobers up, yes, and he wakes up in jail in custody, he's gonna go, I did what?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I think that's exactly what will happen. And I've you know heard true stories of people that murdered their parents, um, where that does happen. They are forever sorry, and there they are without parents, and they're locked up.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah, and and their siblings are, you know, we can only imagine, and of course, you know, the nature of news is that until another shocking things happen, now we're on to the tributes of how wonderful the Reiners were. And they, you know, by all accounts were amazing people, amazing parents, loved their kids. Um, the rest of the focus will probably be on the funeral, on the trial. And uh we often talk about the effect on the siblings and family decisions we need to make because we have more than we all have more than one child, and we want to protect and nurture the rest of our family. That's important too. And it on top of all this now I work for an NPR affiliate, and so I generally do not post political opinion, I have to say. So I did go on our Facebook page, Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches, you can search for it and find us. And I did say, I'm not posting anything political, I'm posting as a mother. But for our president to have said what he said on Truth Social, and you know, my first reaction was that's not real. Like that was AI generated. That was just, but no, it was Don't we wish, don't we wish? Well, you know, it it wasn't really. You know, people are like, well, you know other people uh, you know, I the reaction to turn it around and make it about politics and Trump derangement syndrome, and to blame this on the liberal views of the Reiners was beyond reproach. And I have to say, I'm looking at my at my post right now. It's been shared 11 times. It's got 44 comments, which is pretty good on Facebook these days because it's all ads. But um, sorry, Facebook, but it's true. Um I just said this response is unforgivable, immoral, narcissistic, and dangerous. I, you know, and I don't mean I don't care who said it, that was just and you know not to mention not empathetic. But I have to say, in my comments were Trump supporters who agreed with me. Like it it crossed the party lines because parents are parents no matter what. And I am so glad something finally crossed the line.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

You know, he called our governor retarded, you know, how he treated the the person with disabilities even during the campaign. And his base just continues to forgive him. But this time, maybe not, you know. But you mentioned narcissistic, and you know, all that's in the news the last two days has been this. And maybe the president just couldn't stand it. He had to figure out a way to get himself back on the in the headlines. But you mention the siblings, you know, what I mean, the parents have died. Maybe Nick is not paying attention yet until he gets some help. But what about those children, the other children, when the president of the United States is maligning their wonderful parents at this time? I just it's just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

And and sadly, it's in character. So I'm not going to comment on this politics, but I will comment on this man's character.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Okay, I think another thing that we really need to remember in all of this is again what our culture, what our American society does to this whole mix of guns, mental illness, violence, and who's responsible. And, you know, we Americans have a really strong um drive to blame and to make sure that people get retribution and get, you know, that they're that that we understand who's responsible and that that person is who gets punished. And so what's gotten swept up in this fervor is people with mental illness. I mean, in a society where almost every deviation from good behavior is excused with a new syndrome or condition, personal responsibility is taking a hit. So on every level, you cheat on your wife, well, you have a sex addition uh addiction, and you know, it goes down the road from there. There's a there's a so-called syndrome for everything. But at the same time, there is a set of conditions or diseases that actually do excuse or at least explain destructive behavior. And that's mental illness, and you know, serious mental illness. And and and somehow when you get to that severe case of it, everybody wants to say, I don't care what their excuse is, they're going to jail. You know, and and I think that we need to really temper our reaction to these things. You know, I just look at our world and we're excusing the people who could be responsible for bad behavior. And then these poor souls who are afflicted with these diseases that they didn't ask for and they also didn't do anything to cause. And clearly, when you're in psychosis, you are not in reality. And so it's very much a case of he thought you were someone else, or he thought he was protecting you, or this mother who drowned her kids in the bathtub thought she was somehow protecting them. And and I mean, I think the idea of punishment and retribution, we got to lighten up on that, and we've got to regard these things as the diseases that they are.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I don't think we're going to, though. That's what really bothers me. Once we people might be sympathetic if you could catch it early, catch it when they're young, but when you have an adult that commits murder, then all of a sudden nobody has sympathy anymore. And people are, you know, I watched a video today in New Orleans where somebody's brother had killed four people in his psychosis. And she told the story of her family trying for years to get help for her brother, and nobody would help them. It's the same thing we've been talking about already on this program. But as soon as he had committed the murders, then they saw showed news clips of the victims' families. Their family members of those four people had been killed and they were out for blood. And they heard that this person was deemed incompetent to stand trial, which just means until you're not psychotic anymore, and then you do stand trial, you might as well stand it right away because you're still going to be convicted if you committed a murder. But they just wanted them, they thought that was getting off easy. They were, it was a cop out. People are just trying to say they have a mental illness so they don't have to be culpable. I mean, but there was no sympathy. And so that was like we heard the sympathetic story from the sister, and then these people out for blood. And they were the ones, I bet you, if people are watching the news, who would get the sympathy.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I would say, and I think that, you know, obviously, and we've talked about this. Please check our other episodes where we we talk about the system. And the same issues in like episode four or five when we talked to Didi Renhan, like it. The issues are still there. I think that we just needed to vent how we feel about this episode. And for me, let's just go around and say what our bottom line is. I have to say the bottom line is my wish is that take families seriously when they tell you they're frightened. You know, it it's honestly after my son almost ran me over, or almost, you know, they did not put him in the hospital. It wasn't a harm to himself or others. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

What?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yes, he is. But I, you know, and I know everybody's bound by a different law, and uh, there's so much to be fixed, but attention needs to be paid to these types of things. And as this poor family uh unravels this horrible trauma, the blame game should a coda wood it does uh to them means nothing. To the system, yes. Let's fix the system, let's you know, get AOT in place. There's many, many things that have to be fixed. Um what you did in Minnesota, Mindy, changing one word in the statute, which share again, the law that you were able to change.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Um, it's actually more than one word, but we changed an important word. We took out um imminent danger to sell for others, and there were several other components to it. But that one word meant that when the police came, they could believe the family that the person had been dangerous, you know, five or ten minutes ago instead of having to see it right then. But it's, you know, it's still we still have problems with um with these things happening. My bottom line is that we need to believe the parents, like you said. And also parents tend to, I think, minimize dangerousness. They don't want to say, we don't want to say our we're afraid of our children, that they're dangerous. I think if a parent does say they're afraid, then you really better believe them because they probably aren't saying that as soon as they should. But my bottom line then, I agree with that one. Another bottom line for me is anasygnosia. You know, that is what prevents often help, getting getting help early, because the whole system is geared to don't believe the family. You only can talk to the person. And if the person's brain isn't working and they say they're fine and they don't need help and go away, their parents are the crazy ones, you know, then you miss getting help for people like Nick Riley or Nick Reiner early.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. You know, uh what comes to my mind, it's a little adjacent to this, but I think it's very important, and that's that there are not hospitals, there are not beds, there is not anywhere for these people to go. So we can all agree on what we agree on right here and be right and change everybody's mind. But if there is not a treatment place for these people, if there are not beds, it's all just talk. And there's nowhere for these people to go. And um except jail. Except jail.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

When they make it, where they don't get treatments, and that and that's it, that's the burden on that system.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Of of being human, for God's sake, you know, being human and understanding that these are full-form, complete human beings who something has gone wrong with, but that doesn't mean that they don't hold the same value as a human life that everybody all's always yelling about. Well, let's put our money where our mouth is and start funding treatment. Because even if you can get them held or get them put in a hospital, there has to be a bed for them. And there aren't any.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Agreed. And I would just add that if there's a family and the Reyners are a famous family, with like you said, Mindy, all the resources uh to everything under the sun to help this child. Playing the blame game does nobody any good. Give this family some grace, give them some time to mourn. Give them give them some grace. This is you know, and and we have interviewed so many people who did everything for their child. And like we say, the the title of this episode, The Fear We All Live With. I would say for me, I've had to set boundaries with my son and like Nick Reiner, he was homeless for months at a time because I wouldn't let him live with me if he was in a state that scared me. And I hear from so many people who are afraid to go home. So, you know, like give yourself some grace as well. Ask for help. Um, we have a lot to fix, obviously. But, you know, if uh anybody knows the Reiners, please tell them the three moms, we feel you. We're not the only ones.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Thank you, Randy, for calling this program. It wasn't scheduled, but so timely and so needed.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches. You can help out the podcast and help others by sharing the podcast and by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts andor on YouTube. And remember you can reach us at mindygryling.com, randy k dot com, or miriam hyfenfeldman.com.